Midlife Relationships: How to Reconnect With Your Partner

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hi everyone, welcome back to WTF Just Happened. We have an amazing international guest, Nikki Ford, on today.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Our first international guest.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

Our first international. She's Australian. You'll understand what I'll explain this later, but this episode is about reconnecting with your spouse and creating a thriving relationship in midlife. And Nikki is an expert on this, amongst many other things. So let me just introduce her quickly and then we'll sort of turn it over. Is she Nikki Ford, a relationship and behavior specialist who works with business owners, executives, and individuals to strengthen the relationship they have with themselves, so important, and the people around them. With more than 20 years of experience working at the intersection of human behavior, psychology, and performance, her work focuses on the patterns beneath success that shape how people connect, communicate, lead, and navigate pressure. So welcome all the way from Australia.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Yes, we're so excited to have you. It's 10 o'clock in the morning. Um I just told Nikki before we went on. Um we go to bed, Hillary and I go to bed like grandma's at like 8 p.m. And uh Nikki's just starting her day at 10 a.m. and probably with coffee. So we're so happy to have you. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure, and I am so excited to chat all things relationship with you both.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Oh my gosh, I just love your voice so much. I know, and just so you guys know, because we are a podcast for uh a lot of women over 40. Yeah, who did you say that you live by?

SPEAKER_01 1:52

So I was trying to explain where I was in Australia and I said where Chris Hemsworth and Liam Hemsworth are located is just that way.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Amazing. We'll be there next week and we need to go find them.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

Okay. And then we started, I started the conversation with if my spouse or partner was Australian, I would never fight. Yeah. I would just say, you talk. Yeah, you're right, just keep talking. Just keep talking, and I'm gonna just go over here and listen to you.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

And yet I think we butcher most things. So that's really nice to think that you guys really like our accent because we do.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

All day, every day. Okay, I will let Sada take it away.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Okay, so um, like we said, we uh we had another episode. It was basically like if you want to leave your marriage, what does that look like? Um, here are some tips, and I don't want to say tricks, that's probably not the right one. Definitely not tricks. Tips on how and kind of you know, um stages of how to get ready and what does that look like. Um, so we didn't dive really deep into how to actually, you know, save your marriage or work on it or reinvent your marriage. So I knew that when Hillary found you, you know, it's like we really need to have Nikki on because I think it's going to be great for her to really talk to our our um um our audience, and even you know, I could have used this throughout my entire marriage. So, first, I guess it's uh a question of like how did we get here? Um, so am I starting here? Sorry I'm sorry. Oh yeah, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

So actually, I'm gonna ask a really quick question. Is so you work obviously with incredibly capable people who are incredibly successful. So two people can be functioning really well in life, but they're not functioning together well as a couple. So, what are some things that you notice, especially in midlife, and some things that some sort of just kind of sort of let's start there on the things you notice and kind of the things that maybe people can do when they're high functioning everywhere else except for their marriage. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Yeah. And I think this is the the the key thing. They're they're very high functioning, they're very capable, they're running really successful businesses, maybe they're even professional athletes where on the field, in front of TVs, they are on. They are a 10 out of 10 in their performance phase. But then they come home and they try to use the same strategies, the same ways that work in the workplace or on the field at home, and they're two different worlds, and therefore it creates this disconnect, it creates this fracture between them, and then it creates confusion, which they're going, well, how come I'm so capable over here? I don't need to ask for help, I can do it all, I'm very successful, but I feel like I'm failing over here. And somebody who's high functioning, they don't like to feel vulnerable, they don't like to feel like they're failing, and they don't like to feel like they're not good at something because that kind of perfectionist in them is what drives them so well and creates so much success. And suddenly it's eluding them on what the answer is. And so they often just double down, they go harder or they disconnect depending on what their kind of default patterning is that maybe they've inherited from parents or um other experiences. But it slowly but surely it just keeps fracturing that trust because now they feel rejected, or there's that miscommunication, or they stop trying because they don't feel like what they're doing is wreaking that that feedback of reward or connection, and so they step away and go to where they feel most confident, which is back into their work, and they throw themselves in there because they're like, oh, well, at least I'm contributing something, maybe financially. So that's my job, and they disconnect to all the other parts, and that is I really really resonate with that.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

I think um looking back at my marriage with my husband, um we went to a lot of therapy for this exact reason. I mean, he was so great at, I mean, he was great in general, like he was so amazing. Um, but he my husband passed away, and that's a whole other story, and we can we would dive into that later. But we were we knew each other since we were 14 years old. So I do have to say, growing up, he was great at work, thriving, helping men detached maybe in certain ways at home because he used those communication skills that he had at work, which people loved and adored him, to come home and kind of like do the same. Well, then it was like not working because that's not how like our foundation was supposed to be is like husband and wife. Um, so we we did struggle a lot in that area of disconnect, you know. We we needed to learn and go to therapy and really learn like communication skills separately from both of our jobs. I mean, I couldn't treat him the way that I would be, you know, talking to somebody that I worked with when I was a flight attendant or whatever. It was like you can't come home and and treat your spouse. You really have to work on having these like really great relationships in a different manner. But the men are at their, I mean, and we both work in sales, so we're sales-y, right. But I do remember being like with Chris working at home during COVID, and we both worked at home and in the in the same room, and I remember him saying things that I had never heard him say before. Like, well, okay, um, Brett, let's go ahead and circle back on that. And I looked at him and I was like, What? Is that how you talk at work? I was like, and you know, and that it so it's a different version. Because it's a different version of that person who was at work. So we did we really saw a different part of each other during that time period, and I will say it was a very rough time period for everyone to be home and in one house. But I get that. I mean, I definitely Well, I actually have a question.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

Are you finding that obviously I agree is people in the workforce they're they're a version of themselves, yeah, and maybe that's like the perfectionist version, the high-functioning version. Are you finding that most people don't actually really have a solid relationship with themselves? So, meaning like the baseline isn't there, so it's easy to go and do the performance, it's like a facade, right? Because you can throw yourself into your work super easy to be great at something, and then if you're missing what's inside, you come home and you have a partner, and now we don't have the either also the probably the communication skills. So, where do you start with people in sort of that area?

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yeah, great question. So, what I discovered with most high performance was that very fact that they were externally really successful, very capable and and very able to do lots of things. But when we looked internally and when we asked them, well, how do you operate and how do you feel? And what's your why and what's your values? And we asked these deeper questions, they kind of looked at me like I had just slapped them with a fish because they're like, I don't know what that is. And most of the time, what I found was highly successful people were driven by changing what they had experienced as a child to be as far different and be so vastly, they don't want to be like their parents, they don't want to have that upbringing, they want to be the complete opposite, or they loved that, but they come from I need to be the best, and so they're driven by all of this external validation, which nothing about any of that is how do I feel about this and who am I as a person, which often then fueled this ongoing fire of I need more to be more, I need more to be more, and created that incredible ability to be uber successful. But then when it came to being and cohabitating with another person, that's a completely different kettle of fish because now you're being mirrored and triggered by the very things that you're trying to outrun and outperform with those external things. So, what I found that when I sat down with these individuals on their own, not as a couple, I don't work with couples together, I work with them separately because it stops the competition of them going, oh, she's on my side, or she's validating you more, or um, I she said this, he said that, and it becomes like this tennis match in the room. I found that when I worked with them and we looked at that very fact, what what do you what and who are you as a person first? What do you value? What what makes you excited? What makes you happy? What drives you? And all of those internal sort of systems, it showed how fractured and how detached people are. Because when I ask most people, so what is your number one value in life? They go, that I am ambitious. And I'm like, that's external. Tell me something about what you value most. Now, is it your family? Is it money? And people don't like to say money because they go, oh, that sounds greedy. No, no, no. But if it's a value, now we need to understand the whys behind it so that you can create safety for it, so that you can understand why it's important to you and own it wholly and be able to then communicate it with those people around you so that it doesn't get seen as a negative, but it's seen as something that you can support and work on together. So when I start building on them understanding that relationship with self and all the moving parts, suddenly the things that they were once triggered by externally from their partner, their friends, external things, everything else, they start to go, oh, that's why that pressed my buttons, oh, that's why I reacted when that person said that. That's why I couldn't hold space for that conversation, because it was something that I felt about me first. And when they spoke about it, it highlighted it, and I don't want to deal with that because I didn't have the skills or the insight or the understanding to do it. So it's building that safety from within rather than relying on it all externally.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

I have a question. Do you do you find in the very beginning when you start working, let's say, with couples separately, do women have an easier time being vulnerable and identifying than men do?

SPEAKER_01 12:44

You know what? Women are really good at talking from an emotional place. They've they're they are more emotionally uh open and present than what men naturally are. Now you can look at that from a historical perspective and generational capacity. You know, men have never been encouraged, they've been provide, fight, protect. Um the nurturer. Yeah, you know, women are naturally nurturers because of childbearing and things like that and the safety and nurturing of the survival of that child, whereas the men would go out externally and do things. So, what I find when I start working with men is it's like trying to teach them a new language. It's, you know, you've never spoken French before. So let's just start with the basics. Let's understand why it's important, let's understand what you're feeling and reconnect to those parts because then they start to realize the value in being able to do it safely without judgment. And that's the key. So I think men end up being better in the long run because they go from logical to emotional, whereas women are very good at thinking that they're analyzing themselves because they've done a lot of self-education through podcasts, books, and things like that. That they think they've got all the tools and they kind of try to tell you what the problem is rather than allowing themselves to be honest and feel it. I could resonate with that.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Going into therapy, I was like, I am not the problem. Yes, you need to talk to him, he's the problem, right? Right. So here is my little list. Here's my list of things that you need to do.

SPEAKER_03 14:24

You can just check these off for the prices. Yeah. This is Nikki. Welcome to Nikki's world. She's gonna fix you in the 15 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

Yeah, or less. Or less. Or two appointments. In probably two appointments. When really I have a lot of shit to work on. We all do. It's just a different way of working on it with men that are probably, like you said, more detached and women are more, you know, emotional. And um I did, yeah, I had a question here that I was reading. I was like, oh, I need to ask her this. Okay, so what does that look like? Um, you set up a time with the the couples, right? So you're meeting with the man and the woman separately. What does that look like if they come in and they are in turmoil? Like, how do you sit with each of them separately and really just try to like let them know like you can make it to the end, I promise, if you just give me that time to work with both of you? Or do you see some couples and you're like, good luck?

SPEAKER_03 15:22

Well, I actually want to really quickly is couples that are in turmoil, or in my first marriage, which was 16 years, we had silence. We didn't have there was turmoil, there was lots of turmoil behind the scenes, but we had somebody who wouldn't talk. So I had someone who would not communicate with me. So people come to you in midlife, and you have probably the two spectrums are somewhere in between. What do you first start to do with them?

SPEAKER_02 15:50

And I do, just really quick, I do know a lot of um couples, friends or not, where the men have a really hard time even going to see anyone. Like it takes getting to the very end of like, I'm gonna leave if you don't go, or whatever that means. So, how do you, you know, how do you start to work with those those couples and what is what do those first appointments look like when they are just I've been there. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Yeah. Look, I think one of the most important things to to learn is most of the time one or the other comes and says, I've been told to come here because if I don't come, where we're done, we're ending, they're leaving me. And most of the time it's the men coming to me going, My wife's threatening to leave me. I'm here, I'll do, I'll do anything. But what I need them to own is they have a choice and they have to want to choose to show up to these sessions and be open because they're wanting to choose to stay in that relationship. I think the most important thing for each person in a relationship is to understand and respect, no matter whether you're married or been together for 20 years, it's still a choice to be there and in that relationship every single day. And when we start to forget that and we take it for granted is when we start to disconnect and where the danger zone is. And I have people who go, oh, we fight all the time, that's the problem. Then I have people going, oh no, we never fight. It's just, you know, it's kind of like it's nothing big, it's just silence, like what you've just said. So I think both ends of the spectrum are kind of in the same place, just displayed differently. So when I have someone first come and sit with me, the most important thing, especially with men, is I try to build that trust and connection really fast. And having worked with a lot of men, I find that I use a lot of humor and banter and lightheartedness so that they realize this isn't about me pulling all the layers back today and making them cry on the first session. That's not what we're here for. But I want them to feel heard. So it's like, what have they got capacity to share in that in that moment with their level of comfort? And then let's peel it back slowly. And what I do is I kind of use it, you know, I go, I peel in and then I pull back and use some humor. Go in a little bit more and then step back and use some humor or sarcasm or things that resonate with them. I use a lot of analogies that I've discovered will connect with them depending on their field of expertise or their interests. So I really try to adapt it to them really quickly so that they feel like we're just two friends kind of sitting here having a conversation with no judgment. And most of the time that's what they'll say, oh, you're probably gonna judge me for this. And I'm like, honestly, not here to have an opinion, just here to help you explore this with safety so that you can get clarity on things and then take that home and start exploring that with your partner. And I do the same thing with the the female as well, but I find that I do take a different tact because women will come in very emotional. They've been thinking about this usually for about 12 months prior to being wanting out. So with them, it's a lot of nurture and a lot of holding space for them to feel heard for the first time in a really long time. So I find the first session or two is often holding space for them to let off steam, but then being able to give it some structure and challenge them. Um, but challenge them enough that it doesn't feel like they're being attacked, but challenge them so that they don't fall into the victim and let's start looking at ways like what is your choice? Do you want, do you want out? Is that where you're already at and you're not coming back from that? Or are you still wanting to be open to keep choosing each other if we could grow and evolve from where you are today? And when they start to own that and they see hope, now they're completely committed and they stop falling so much into victim and blame, and they start wanting to uh feel and evolve from. So that's sort of the first session or two.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

Oh, I love it. I would think that people who are finally coming to you are wanting to stay in the marriage. I did not need someone to validate. I knew when it was time, actually, I probably knew six years prior, but it took a lot. I had little kids and there was just some things I had to get done to strategically leave that relationship and still know I would be okay in my kids. But are you finding that when people come to you, they actually truly are. They're not looking for a validation to leave, or they really are probably looking for help.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Um, I think it depends on the situation. I think sometimes I have one half of the relationship who have already checked out. They're like, I think you've done, I think exactly what you just said. Um, I've kind of got all my ducks in a row. I think the kids are old enough to cope with this. So, what I try to always do is empower each individual because again, it comes back to that choice. They have to want to choose to keep working on it, and that has to be both sides, it can't be one dragging the other along. And so I think it's about hearing what is missing. Where did that stop? Was it ever there? Or was it something that was actually never there? They just accepted it because they thought that they weren't warranted to have it in the first place. And if we find that those are the missing parts, then often that's a lot of a self discovery and working on and repairing those patterns of belief that have been there for often decades, because often from as a child, and then seeing there's capacity in that relationship to give those particular elements, or are they with someone who never had that, hasn't. Want to evolve into that. And they're just two very different people who are evolving in very different directions. So I think you know it does depend on the situation, and you have to hold space for them to evolve and grow through that. And hopefully, with that growth, we can bring them back together in that new exciting space.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Sure. Or even just exiting, but exiting in a better place than maybe they came to you in. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Most people come to me and say, oh, we're staying together for the kids. And I'm like, well, that's the worst reason that you can stay together. Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Oh, it might because I mean I could resonate with that.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

And I absolutely can sit here and say, I mean, it makes me emotional because I'm so glad that Chris and I like did like work it out and we spent almost our whole marriage in therapy. We have no foundation. We were 14 when we met, got married really young. We had our daughter first. So I was pregnant, then we got married when she was two. I was like the victim because I didn't have the skills or the foundation. We didn't have those dating years to get to know each other. We literally like survived like this like crazy, like, I don't even know, like a war marriage. It was so great that it was so bad. I would throw a remote at him. Like it was so, it was like fire and ice, you know, the whole marriage. And we did, there were plenty of times. And he would, if he was here, he would say the same thing. Like, yeah, it was hard. And we we we did say several times, like, we'll get the girls to where they need to be. And then, you know, um, but oh my gosh, we just like fell back in love like so hard the last like I would say five to seven years of our marriage, and I'm so glad we stayed. Yeah. So I almost wonder, like, yeah, I don't, it's just so hard to know like what would my life have. I don't live in the past like that, but just I'm I'm glad I stayed. And I did work really hard at myself because I was a victim for a very long time. Blaming Chris wasn't doing enough, all the things. And I'm sure he was like, I'm freaking staying at work. I don't want to come home to you freaking yelling at me all the time about and bitching. And you did work too. We both work, yeah, yeah. And yeah, we both work. So I I see it's uh it has to be very difficult for you to sit down and think, oh yeah, you two are not gonna make it, or I think I can make this to work.

SPEAKER_03 24:24

So I'm sure when they do make it, it's gotta be a process, right? Because I mean, it must be amazing to watch two people come back together, yeah, and actually, yes, because it's not where they started, and maybe they never thought they could get there. But if you have the tools, so that actually kind of brings it up is okay, so you've got people coming to you, you're working through. For people, let's say, who are not seeing someone professionally, what is your advice to them if they're at that kind of either we're roommates or we're having turmoil or we're just in midlife, and it's kind of like I like you as a human, I don't know if I'm still in love with you on either side.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Yep, great question. Look, I think the thing is that is really common is to get to that point where you sit back and look at your life and go, how did I get here? Suddenly everything feels a bit stale. I'm questioning my own existence, I'm questioning what I want, what I don't want. Um, I've lost myself in all of this. And that is the thing. I think people go, oh, I'll just go and read some books, I'll go and speak to my friends, I'll go and listen to podcasts. All of these things are great at creating surface level awareness, but what the what the human brain is so good at doing is writing a narrative that it is only open to or got capacity to. It doesn't go below below that level of comfort to that subconscious, unconscious patterning.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

So when you do this, yeah, I don't mean to is that just scientifically because our brain, I'm just thinking about like grief, is it because it's trying to always keep us safe? And like it doesn't ever, you can't ever like fully go to those levels unless you really, I mean, I don't know how, but is that why? Because our brain is always looking for like the familiar patterns and what's gonna keep us safe.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Correct. So it draws upon experiences to create what it sees as reality, and in that moment, it is reality. You know, it could be that you have identical twins who grew up in exactly the same household, exactly the same age, were dressed the same, everything's the same. DNA, they are the same person, but they're very different in their personalities because that is not obviously identical. Um, so they can it witness the exact same upbringing and experiences, but as adults, one's like, oh my god, my upbringing was insanely good. I felt so loved and supported, I'm thriving, I have the most healthy relationship with men, rah-rah, rah. And then the other twin goes, oh no, I always felt left out, I felt like I was never good enough, I felt like I was dismissed, unheard, yada yada, yada. So it's a personal experience and a story that we start to tell ourselves from the experiences that we draw those conclusions from. But when we sit down with each twin and then unpack what it was, that and you start to go deeper by being able to go into, I guess, those little anchors, those points of of change or interpretation, and unlock and realize that the unconscious mind was saying something else, but the conscious mind memory grasped onto something in particular to tell them that story. And suddenly they're like, oh my god, my parents weren't to blame. It's just that I was a bit quieter and my twin was a little bit more forward. And so I guess I thought that I had to take on that role, and now that's who I've become, but I blamed my parents for not including me more. In actual fact, my it was my choice to not be included more. It was my choice not to speak up. And so now as an adult, they realize that they hold the power of choice. Again, it all comes back to choice and being able to own that. It's like, great, so what do you want to change about that? So being able to reconnect it to where it began, create understanding, and then be able to rewrite that pattern in today, that is the biggest game changer. And you cannot tap into all of that by listening and self-learning because the mind just doesn't have the tools, the capacity, or the challenge to go there. So if somebody is curious about working with someone, find someone that you connect with that you feel like you align with, not that's just going to agree with you, but that is going to make you feel safe to explore and go to those parts. And then know that it's not an overnight success. Like sometimes we can work quite fast, depending on the person's capacity, depending on the level of, I guess, emotional layers that they've got, maturity that they've got, um, and the tools they've already established. But honestly, I think it's the greatest gift that keeps giving, even if you think there's nothing really too bad going on in your life, going and working with someone, oh my God, it can really shift and change things that you didn't know were possible for you.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I just think of like the learning I've had just doing this podcast. Oh my gosh, me too. And actually being able to say, actually, this doesn't serve me. I've always behaved this way, I've always reacted this way. Yeah, it's more of like becoming open to saying. Yes. It's why do I, why do I always like run? Right? My I have the fleet. I'm a to right. So it's like, but it's really interesting when you are able to sit with yourself and say, these are all my great things I love, and these are all my things I would love to maybe grow in, and at an honest level. It's kind of, and I mean, I'm at the surface, it's not I haven't even gone deep, but you know, you think you have it all figured out and you realize I don't have it figured out, I don't have anything figured out.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

So no one ever does.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

No one, no one ever does. It doesn't, it doesn't matter how old you are, how much work you've done. The thing is, uh time is forever ticking by. So the version of you that was a second ago that is now has changed and evolved already. So if you think about time ticking by, you are ticking by. So the skill that you need in a day's time is different to a day ago. So I think that's the important thing to understand and respect is you never get to a finish line.

SPEAKER_03 30:59

Right. And nor did you. So you have to give them the grace that they're also not the same. So if you got married, let's say in your young 20s, and now you're in your, let's say, mid-40s to 50s or older, you're very different people. Oh. Sure, I know hopefully you've grown in the same place, but right, you're reconnecting with your marriage all the time because you're different versions of yourself.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

But the biggest problem that happens is what I coined the identity lag effect is a great example of meeting at 14, is you are starting that relationship as children, really. You you're just teenagers, you're so youthful without the responsibility of finances and and all of those things, and the intricacy of only knowing such an insular world of school and that hometown. And then go, you know, 20 years later, you're still functioning from that beginning identity where you first met, that that young love, but you're now 20 years older with all of these layers of experience and exposure and insight and knowledge that you just didn't have at 14, that you now have at 34. And so now you're you're still trying to hold on to that excitement of a 14-year-old and trying to recreate it or bring it into the current state. And that's what kind of keeps us stuck in two places and feels like they're not doing enough, this is not working, the relationship is the problem, they are the problem, all of these, this blame game. And in actual fact, what you're trying to do is recreate the past rather than evolve and be present and and create happiness and fulfillment in the versions that you are today.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

I mean, that is just like liquid goals to me because I and I did just hear something the other day about living our lives. It's like we're always so quick to want to get to the the finish line. Well, you said there is no finish line. We want to get to the next thing and the next thing. When really like the goal, which I'm learning, I'm trying, is like to live in this journey. Right. And I I it's very difficult because you're thinking, well, I just want to get past this. And then once I get this, I'll have I'll be okay. And then once I get this, I'll feel this way. And it's like I'm learning now, which I try to teach my girls too. Like, you're the day is the journey. Like, look at the ocean, look at the the heart leaf on the ground, like pull your favorite mug out. Like, I'm I do really try to do that. Um, but I didn't know that we were supposed to do that. It was just always like run to the next thing, hurry and get to the next thing, get to the finish line.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

Right when I get the house, when I get the car, when I get the job I want, when I have the spouse I want. Yeah, it's right, it's like all those things, then I'll be happy.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

And that's the problem with high achievers, is yeah, they're always focused on the next goal, but they think the next goal solve all the current problems. But let's let you know, people go, oh, but when I earn a million dollars, I won't have any monetary problems. Yes, you will. Because now when you have the capacity to earn a million dollars, you have the overheads to match a million dollar income. It just means now you need two million dollars to make it feel free and easy again. Because the human mind likes challenges and is always trying to strive to improve. But what you forget is that a relationship doesn't function on how much money you earn, it functions on the presence that you give in those moments. And I think when you've experienced um, I guess, a loss or like a burnout or a loss of external success, like bankruptcy and those big life-changing losses, as in losing your husband, I think it teaches you how fickle the external things are. And the only thing you can control is who you are and how you feel within you. And when you start to really peel back those layers and come back to those basic foundations, you start to see the beauty in the small things rather than just the big things. You start to see the beauty in how you feel about just feeling your toes in the sand or you know, going for a morning swim or seeing the sunrise and feeling the warmth on your face. You slow down because you stop, you know, you stop trying to fill gaps and feel something by creating external success. Because I can tell you, I at my career where I was earning the most, I remember I bought a diamond ring online between patients without even looking at it or thinking too much about it. I was like, oh yeah, that that'll make me feel excited or rewarded for achieving that. And all it did was I got the ring, I was like, oh, it's really lovely. Next, next next next. Never really appreciative of what it is because you're trying to fill the void. And when I realized that after my third burnout, that you know, the most important things to me are my health, because without my health, I am not going to be able to function. Um, so how do I nurture that? How do I stay present? How do I appreciate the small things? Just grateful to wake up every day, just grateful to be able to go to the beach, just grateful to have space to work on me. And then you start to go, okay, what else am I grateful for? Well, a relationship. You know, for years you want a relationship, and then when you get it, you get comfortable with it and you forget to prioritize it. And I started to realize that life was much more exciting when I got to share those experiences with that special someone. And so I started prioritizing that, valuing that, giving it that little bit of extra where I would have shoved it aside. And these are all the things that I teach my clients is start small, and when you start to value you, it just naturally filters into those around you. It's kind of contagious because they're like, geez, you're so happy and calm and just genuinely look peaceful. I want some of that. And then they start to mirror and watch what you're doing, and they start to bring it into their life. So rather than mirroring the triggers, you're mirroring this really beautiful, wholesome behavior that starts to really build on that relationship and that connection naturally. It's it's so good.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

For someone who, let's say, doesn't have a spouse or doesn't want to come, and I know some men, and I can you know name a few that probably would be hesitant because they're gonna hear like I'm failing, I'm doing something wrong. They're not in that emotionally open space. So you say start with you, start mirroring and living authentically in your best version of yourself. What are some things people can do? Let's say who have a spouse who isn't there yet to go see someone, to start doing that and sort of encouraging them to then create a space, I guess, that's just more peaceful at home, where you can start having those sort of micro connections versus like date night, right? And making it like a thing that they have to do. Because that's you know, that's what I thought is I thinkfully remarried and happy, and we just have a beautiful, ongoing, very peaceful connection. And we don't have to do date night's fine, but we don't have to structure it because it's kind of like a daily thing of just wanting to be together.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Exactly. So when people go, oh, a date night, what you're doing is just shifting the location of the same problems. Yes, yes, yes, and bringing yourself another issue with wine, yeah, exactly, and then they they tick it off the list. Oh, well, we did that, oh you know, we scheduled it in. I made time to do that. But I think the thing that I teach people is I've used the VP V model, which is the values, priorities, and boundaries. So when you understand, and I use the values before, so for me, my values are family and money because money gives us freedom and capacity to do things and does take a lot of pressure off because finances are one of the most you know, biggest contributing causes of marriage issues and relationship breakdowns. Um, but family is everything to me, you know, like you have a good family unit, and that can mean different things to different people. But if I have those two things in my world, they are my number one value. So then I start to build out. Now, if I was single, I would look at what are my values? Well, my values might be still financially independent and stable so that I don't have to worry about paying bills and things like that. And then when I look at my priorities, it's like, well, how do I prioritize those values? So for me, it's my priorities are I build a business, but I create boundaries around it. So I only work Monday to Friday, I I finish by five because the evenings are our time together. Weekends are our time together, you know. So I work out what those boundaries are to be able to prioritize the value. So it becomes this ongoing formula that you can check in with everything, even the smallest decisions. And so when people start to go, oh, there's actually a bit of a formula I can use for everything, I stop having to kind of stab in the dark guess if that aligns with me, and then they get the guilt. So, for example, for men who are having to say no to their mates and they feel like that is social suicide, and you know, their wife's making them choose and they resent their wife for it. It's going, okay, but what are my values? My family, my family and number one. Okay. So what do I need to prioritize on a weekend? Well, maybe it's once a month spending time with my mates, but the other weekends are all about my family because Monday to Friday we're really busy, and weekends is when we reconnect. So that's my priority. And the boundary is the once a month catch up with my mates and being able to stick to that boundary because that builds safety and trust within my relationship that I'm not letting the people that I value most down. So it starts to be stopping the blame, taking accountability, making a choice, understanding why you're making that choice, and then living to it. So, you know, now a friend asks you to go out on another weekend, and you're like, okay, well, what do I need to do to honor those three areas? I'm gonna sit down and talk to my wife about this. How would she feel about this? And the wife might be like, Absolutely, look, you've been doing a lot of great things. I've got this covered, you go and enjoy yourself, or maybe we compromise on it. But it's about building that communication because you're living by that formula, you understand its importance.

SPEAKER_02 42:14

I like love the formula. I think that every I think you need to be. Oh my god, that's you need to like what's it called? Um uh patent. Like patent it. You need to patent it. Uh-huh. I feel like you need to copyright it. Because you can patent that. I'm because I'm gonna say this when when um several people I know, uh couples, including myself, when you are in alignment and things are going good, and you're what is tell me again, it's the VPB, uh-huh. Values, priorities, boundaries. When your VPBs are in order, I would be so happy to say, Chris, you go golf every single weekend of your freaking life and have at it. Because you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna sit in my pool and I'm gonna lay out on my, I'm gonna be, and then we're gonna have dinner and we're gonna be so happy together. And our kids, we're gonna watch a movie tonight. So that is like that's a big uh to me, like a light bulb moment in other couples that I I know that are you know struggling in those in those areas of like if things are going good and you're really, really looking at your BPBs, like that is the key to get to the place where you're like, you go play pickleball.

SPEAKER_03 43:29

Everything in life. I mean, if something comes in that does not match one of those things, I know women especially have a harder time saying no. I was like this in my younger years, stopped working, became like the crazy volunteer. Yeah, like volunteered for everything, was the head of this, and saying yes to things that took away from my children. True. It's probably just no, it was. I mean, I because I I was, you know, was that need to be successful in a different arena, but looking back. That didn't serve my children because they're the most important thing to me, and the time with them. And now that they're adults, I think, where did those years go? If I went back and did it differently, I would have had the system and I would have said no to anything that took. I mean, I remember working at all of these events that my kids would be at, but I was the one putting it on. Like I didn't get to enjoy it right now. Right. They were, it was an afterthought of having them there.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

But I think this is this is the problem with mum guilt is we get guilty about what we're not doing. So we try to fill it with other things, but it's that fear factor. It's the fear of I'm not good enough, I'm not successful enough, who am I without those things? So you start filling it with other other things. Even though you left work to prioritize the family, you then went and prioritized all this volunteering because it it filled a validation that you felt like you had lost. But where what I say to mums is you have to be selfish to be selfless. Yeah. You have to be selfish with yourself first. Think about an aeroplane. Who do they tell to put the mask on first? You because you can't protect or save your child if you are not able. So when it comes to life, when it comes to relationships, the same philosophy applies. You can't pour from an empty cup into your relationship. You must fill your own cup first to give to your partner or to give to your children. So most importantly, is valuing you and that relationship with yourself and being curious and working on it and constantly nurturing it is what allows you to keep giving to those other areas safely without sacrificing yourself. But most commonly, when we sacrifice ourselves for others, whether it's for career, for children, for husbands, and whatnot, we become resentful because then we become more scarcity, and that's why we hold tighter with our children, with our partner. No one likes to be caged in, no one likes to feel controlled. So what happens is they try to pull away and you hold tighter. And it's all because your whole external self is attached to that validation from that relationship external to you, rather than valuing and having the capacity to have all of those things within you first. And those external things are the bonus, they're not your main fuel source.

SPEAKER_03 46:31

The other thing, because for me, I would say, if I'm being completely honest, which I'm pretty good at, is I never looked within. It was I right, I grew up with self-esteem challenges, always feeling sort of less than. I was always sort of the funny one, and that was sort of my role. And so having all the other things, having the work success, having the volunteer success, yeah, doing all the other things meant I didn't have to spend any time sitting with myself because that was a scary place. Right. That was where you can't, I didn't want to be. I and you know, I think I've gotten there now where I'm like, okay, these are the goods, these are the bads. But yeah, it's it's hard to sit with yourself and say and peel yourself back and say, these are my areas I really need to work on, or these are my growth opportunities.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

So that's why when our partner says, you know, maybe to you, oh, I don't feel like you're ever here, we get defensive because like you're like, what do you mean? I've sacrificed my whole life to be here for you and the kids, and I gave away my career. And then it becomes that tennis match, it becomes that resentment, it becomes that competition of proving all the things that you did for them when in actual fact the very thing that you were trying to achieve, you lacked for yourself. And when we start back and go, huh, actually, I just feel like I'm not giving anything to me. So how can I give to you? But then I do give to you and I expect you to give to me, but when you don't do that in the way that I want, I feel like you're not hearing me, you're not validating me, and and it becomes that competition again and that resentment again, and that lack of connection and trust gets fractured.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

Yeah, I mean, this is like it's all so true. I mean, you women, I filled myself with years of um PTA, uh like working at school and having, you know, women's groups or Bible study or all of this, and they would fill my cup, you know, of course, and then I would come home and it was like, well, the one person you want to fill your cup, you're at odds with, um, which leads me into our next little little area of which because we always have to talk about intimacy and sex because it's a big part of yes, this midlife. Um, you know, so like what when things happen to attraction and intimacy. So, like, what do you um do when you have these couples and you're working on them? Because sex is a big part of a relationship and not just sex. I mean, I'm talking intimacy and getting making a coffee for your spouse and putting, you know, the right creamer in there and working up to all those. You know, how do you, you know, what let's just say I love my husband, but I don't want to make love to my husband if that's like, you know, I think that's a lot of women, well, not really. Um, I mean, but yes, I think it's a lot of um marriages that are in the thick of it with like um younger kids and kids that are I wouldn't even say younger, I would say you you have I'm gonna speak for just a little of disconnection in midlife.

SPEAKER_03 49:48

Kids are adulted and we've had long marriages, and I'm not just speaking of our close friend group because I think everyone has a really lovely marriage, but people we've known where there is a large disconnect, and it's like looking at your spouse and saying, A, I'm maybe not physically attracted to you anymore. Um, I still love you. I'm not maybe in love with you, and I'm not super attracted to you. So, how do you help people like come out sort of re-establish that?

SPEAKER_02 50:14

And for those that have a lot of listeners that um are in their 30s with or younger with younger teens and tweens, and they are like sh passing ships in the night. Right. There is like no, you know, there's and then I feel like that happens as you stay married for a long time too. You can kind of get disconnected, and then there's like the whole like you know, midlife crisis kind of stuff that happens. So, yeah, what do you do in your practice to just kind of like yeah, help people who want to stay together, who truly love each other, who are just kind of roommates? And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

Absolutely. Great question. So I I work on what is their currency of exchange. It doesn't matter whether I'm working with a CEO with a hundred employees, or I'm working with a married couple, or I'm working with someone who wants to enter into a new relationship, is understanding what do you value. You can call it love languages. I don't love languages because I feel like it boxes things into very particular ones, but it's understanding what is it that you desire. So for me, like I I just I love um those little acts of of of love and support. So from my husband, it might be um offering to help me with something or uh making me a coffee or you know, planning and outing without me having to initiate anything. So it's just those little, you know, times where he's prioritizing the time we have together and valuing me for those little things. Whereas other people's currency of exchange might be affection, they they need to be touched and held and and always be sort of in contact. Um, other people like words of affirmation. So it's finding what works for you and knowing what your partner also appreciates because I can think that my partner wants the the affection, and in actual fact, he wants words of affirmation. And so if I'm giving him something that he doesn't value, right, I'm making the point, and therefore we're speaking different languages. So it's about understanding that first, so that then you can play into that and and be able to support each other on that and feel heard. Because when you both nail that for each other, that miscommunication starts to go. And at the end of the day, affection and romance and and and sexual connection, it comes from feeling safe and feeling heard and being open to wanting to be connected, but I think that builds slowly. So it's about bringing laughter and fun back into the relationship. So crucial. You know, we get bogged down by bills and kids and work and all the other mundane things that just need our attention that we forget to laugh about little silly things because we think we need to be mature. You know, I might dance around the family room with my dog and you know, at eight o'clock on a Tuesday night, and we're just laughing at something ridiculous for 30 seconds, it releases endorphins, it makes us feel connected. And then, or I might go and sit, you know, on his lap to talk to him about something really, I don't know, I saw on TikTok or whatever. But it's those little interconnections because you feel safe, you feel seen, you feel heard, that you want to be in each other's space, that it just naturally evolves into those things. So creating laughter, understanding the currency of exchange between the two of you, and then little micro moments. It's not the big accolades of flowers once a year or a big birthday present. Like those things are lovely if you're if you like gifts, that's your your currency of exchange, but it has to go deeper than that because it all comes back to trust when you trust someone, and that's not just trust because you've been together for 20 years and you've been faithful. I'm talking about trust to hold that deep conversation without attacking, be able to hear what they're saying without having to fix them, being able to share the uh the highs and lows of how you're feeling about different things, with knowing that they're not going to take it personally, go silent, or resent you for that. It's about constantly keeping that trust flowing because when you feel heard, seen, and safe, you naturally want to be closer to that person.

SPEAKER_03 54:38

So I have a question about that for the reason I think again back to my first marriage, which we never had that. And we probably we just we were young, inexperienced, that he wasn't the right soul person for me. And I think that's such a good gift. If you can get to the place in your marriage where you feel safe, if you feel and yourself, and you're yourself. So, how do you, for someone let's say, who doesn't have that, doesn't know that, because it's an unit an unknown feeling. It's that's so it's a like I think back to well.

SPEAKER_02 55:08

Like you can't be yourself.

SPEAKER_03 55:09

I never realized I didn't have that until I have that now with my husband, yeah, but I didn't have it. So how do you help people identify that and then I guess work within themselves and with their partner to bridge that? Because I mean, if if you let's say you don't have that, you're not building on all the other stuff if you ultimately don't have that as your baseline.

SPEAKER_01 55:31

Absolutely. So that is where I do a lot of that historical work again. So I work out what did safety look like in that that family dynamic growing up? Was there safety? Is it something that they learned? Maybe they came from parents who fought all the time, so they never saw safety in an external relationship displayed. So they don't even know what safety means. But safety to them meant relying just on themselves, doing it all themselves, because that was the only person they could ever trust. So now when they're in a relationship, they don't trust their partner because they don't believe that anyone can hold that kind of level of safety for them because they can only rely on themselves. So that keeps them at a distance from that partner from being fully connected, and you're never allowing that kind of bridge to be made and nurtured because you don't actually know how to create it in the first place. So it's about us rewiring so that they understand why they didn't have it, why it wasn't displayed, why it's kind of a missing kind of ingredient in their formula, and then how to work on building it and understanding that you don't have to throw yourself into that. It's about chipping away at it slowly through little exercises and things that I give them to work on with their partner because safety and trust is often earned by most people, it's not just given and then taken away when it's been misplaced, it's earned over time. So it's about them doing it together, and guess what it naturally does? It brings them together. That relationship and it's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 57:10

It's it's definitely with someone. Yes, it's a whole, I mean, this was the first relationship I've ever had where I thought there's nothing I can't say, there's nothing I can't share, there's nothing I can't like be vulnerable with. It's a totally different level than I had ever experienced.

SPEAKER_02 57:29

Which is such a like a huge gift that you can be yourself. I I mean, I we all know so many relationships, including my own, that I've had spent so many years like maybe wanting to like bust out a dance, like in the living room, and I was like, and Chris was like a goofball dancer, but I was like more kind of like in control, and I needed to control things. I we can't be dancing right now, we have homework to do, we have things to do. But looking back, I am like with my girlfriends, we are like the silliest dancing bunch ever. And if I in the future can just bring all of me, like what a freaking gift to be able to just be yourself in a relationship and not have your husband, you know, if you're being silly at a work event and you had a couple glasses of wine and you're dancing with your girlfriends, not have somebody glare at you like, who is this person that's embarrassing me? Instead of like, you are having that is you. You are having a great time. You are silly, and I love you for that. Yeah, maybe you had too much wine, but let's go home and we're gonna have a good time. But like, I that's so amazing to be able to be yourself in a marriage, I think is literally like the ultimate goal, like to me.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

So it's about owning it from the start. You know, too often when we start dating, we think we need to put on the sales pitch and the best part of this to attract them. Whereas I'm working with a client at the moment, and the thing I say to them is so stop overthinking it and filtering out all parts of you because you want to know that that person has capacity to hold all parts of you from the beginning, because you're setting the bar of expectation now for the future. And it's much harder to change that bar once you're in it, because now they feel like you're deceiving them and it misplaced that trust because now you're doing all these things that they didn't think were part of you, and they think that you were playing a role and that you're not the person that they started dating. And so that can be that miscommunication too. So, you know, if you need that that reassurance in those early days and you're like, you know what, I'm big on communication, don't leave me hanging. I need to know where I stand, that's important to me. You've just you've just expressed a boundary, a priority, and a value to them that you're giving them the opportunity to meet. Now, they may not always meet it, but it's about standing strong with that. Hey, I don't like it when you just leave, you know, ghost me on those things. That that doesn't work for me. I've got a busy life, maybe you've got kids and you're trying to adjust all of that in. Therefore, you need to express what it is that's important to you because they don't guess it. But then if you are the person who loves to go out dancing and loves to have a laugh and loves to do fun, quirky things, then show those sides of you, build that trust and test the water and chip it away because suddenly that that often brings it out for them too, so that they can be all quirky parts of themselves as well. And suddenly you have this beautiful collaboration of two unique people that are getting to share and build that together. And sometimes you discover things that you didn't even know about yourself, that maybe you're a really good singer and that you just never allowed yourself to sing, or maybe you're a bad singer, but they don't care, you just match it in the car together.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:57

Like it's karaoke together, you discover that you like karaoke together. Real music, and what a disservice and sadness to stay to sit in a marriage that you do want to continue with your arms folded and your your stomach tight and your jaw clenched, and just aren't like just like what it makes like I'm like, ah, I just I I spent many years in that and then we got out of that, and I feel like I was able to be myself and be silly and quirky. So I just like it's like you, I'm sure as a therapist, you really want that for these couples that you see that can really make it. They just need to like crash and you know, like smash that wall down and and really get inside of who they really are.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:45

So in the fact that it's a learned thing, that it's not this all or nothing. It's not right, like if you people come to you and they're at their like, I'm coming to you because my wife says I have to come, she's done. Like, let's not hopefully ever get there. But if people who are listening, our listeners can just take away wherever you are in your marriage. A, this is my takeaways, be honest about who you are and what you need. And I think that's the biggest battle, I think personally, for me in my life, that was, and then be really honest about what you actually need from your partner. And then do those little tiny things and have fun, right? Marriage, I have to say, that is the part is I had said this on a former podcast, is being lonely in your marriage is a whole other lonely. Yeah, it is so hard to have your work day and then come home and have what should be your place of comfort and peace and res, you know, all of the things not align and come home and there's tension and there's anxiety, and it's like it's like there's anger and you're walking amongst each other. There's nothing like that. I don't I don't wish that for anyone ever going through that. It was like, I mean, I I can't think of why I even stayed in that capacity for six, seven years. It's like it totally didn't forget. Yes. I just I mean, but that is the beautiful part is to know that regardless of where you are, is start seeking help, start looking, right, start getting people and start knowing that you can come back. There was, I would say, for all beautiful marriages, there was a reason you chose each other. There was most likely love, and there was friendship, and to try and work your way back to that is the ultimate goal. Because I mean, being married to my best friend, I mean, on my worst day, it's a great day. Like, I, you know, I wish only joy and love for everyone because I never thought I would find it this good, and I'm so lucky I have.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:50

And also knowing that there's hope if you don't marry the person who like, I mean, me, Chris and I were friends, but I mean, we had Layla, we dated a little bit. I was a flight attendant, I lived elsewhere, but also knowing like there is hope for people that maybe um get married young, and you know, there there is not like a, you know, we didn't have a lot of dating period, we didn't travel, you know, we did our traveling later, which I'm so thankful for, but also like there is that hope for people that maybe don't start off the greatest, you know? Nobody's business. It I can take a lot of responsibility of just being bratty and just being like, this is not the way I thought my life was gonna go. I thought it was gonna be like roses. And my girlfriend Kristen used to say, Seda, stop thinking that Chris is gonna ride up into front the front of your house on a white horse and release the two dozen red roses and say, like, you're the love of my life. I love you. And I'm like, Well, why not? She's like, because that is not real life. Right. And like she helped. I mean, I really like friends do help in those situations, but we also went to therapy. So I asked her.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:06

I think that's a really valuable point, though, is you know, we can have a level of expectation of what we thought we wanted. You know, that that looks like a movie, and that's that's that tough thing. It's like, so did you go in dating thinking that you could create that? Or are you dating them for who they are? Because it's not a project. You don't go in wanting to build their potential, you need to date them for who they currently are, because that may be who they stay. And I think when we start to peel back those layers of expectation and our our expectations not being met, it's like, okay, so maybe my husband doesn't buy me flowers all the time, but what other things does he does he do as his currency of exchange that I actually really value, that that mean more to me? Well. Every time he walks in the door, he walks in with a smile, he comes over, he gives me a hug and a kiss, and he checks in. And I'm like, oh gosh, that to me, every single day is so beautiful that we reconnect and we're present in that moment, even though we've probably spoken three, four times and during that day about different things. It's just how beautiful is that. And then our dogs come over and we have this whole family moment. What a beautiful way to start then cooking dinner together and having that reconnection when we're, you know, together at home. To me, that now means more than getting the flowers every other week, but not getting them every other day. So it's about changing what the expectation is and understanding that there's so many beautiful things right in front of me that I just forgot to value. I didn't see, and being open to seeing them.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:54

And it is going back to like um you have to be willing in a marriage to really like work hard and like fall in love with that the new version of the person over those years.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:07

And you know, and also yourself, you're just in love with yourself because you're changing, you're evolving, and then they're changing and evolving. So it's like you can look at it that way, you're constantly re-choosing each other. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:21

And and I think that's a really important point, you know. We can blame kids, we can blame work. And somebody once said to me recently, um, oh, well, it must be easy for you and your husband because you don't have kids. So it's just you've got all the time in the world to prioritize each other and that relationship. And I'm like, oh yeah, sure, but that's your problems that you're blaming for where you're at. But what you don't understand is we come with our own set of challenges. You know, we don't have kids to keep us connected, we don't have kids to talk about, we don't, we don't have kids' parties to go and meet other people at. So what we have to do as a couple is find other things to stay connected. And I remember saying to my husband a number of years ago when we found out we couldn't have kids, I went, we have to work consciously to stay connected through throughout the years. Otherwise, it would be very easy for us to throw ourselves into our careers and we end up like that. So we don't have the glue of a family unit traditionally to keep us together. So we need to be proactive in keeping us together, you know, actively with different things. So we travel, we plan holidays, we do, you know, dinners and different activities, we go for beach walks, we, you know, we we make fun things together and we plan because they're the things that we value and keep us happy, inspired, and thriving in all areas of life. So it's about not blaming things, but actually seeing what you value.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:58

Absolutely. And that's, I mean, I know for me is, and we'll wrap this up is I love this is my big foundational talk. I may have had wine on a little girls' trip, and some young, poor 30-year-old started charming me up about something. I never remember. And I was talking, this was my TED talk, my famous TED Talk. Was this why I say my kids is I don't care, right? Is you two are the foundation, and any couple, you are the foundation like a house. And let's say you do not build the foundation, let's say you build the house on mud or on sand, you right then, let's say we have a storm, it all falls down. So you have to make sure that the foundation is totally rock solid, concrete, something, because then when the waves and the storms come, you have to keep, and that's what I was saying to them is the priority has to be your couple. The kids will always be there, the dogs will be there, the friends will be there. But the couple, if you break, the rest of that falls down. And this is why I kids laugh at me now. Yes, you I was on my TED Talk. I should have been on like a platform. But it is like you have to constantly, that was my first marriage, is we didn't have that and we couldn't get through the storms. Where this one is, you know, it sounds really selfish, is when you let's say do have a family, you have to make sure that your partner is the priority and the kids come after that because the kids are gonna be fine. But if your relationship falters and is gets fragmented and you divorce, it all crashes down, and now it looks completely different than what you ever had ever expected. So, yeah, that's my that's my foundational tent.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:41

No, I love that. So uh, like wrapping it up, Nikki, what are um it? I don't know if you see anybody in the USA, but if you do, we will let people know that you can link all your stuff. We'll link all your stuff if people want to get a hold of you and have you coach them through um lots of.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:00

I mean, she does say it's not just relationships, it's burnout, it's it's everything. Yeah, high functioning, all of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:09

So she's what was the name you you what is the thing you said earlier? And I said, Oh, I've never heard of that. You called Nikki, you said she was a um Oh, you're um a relationship architect. I loved that. Relationship architect, oh my gosh, that's amazing. So that could mean relationships at work, home, uh, kids, husband, wife, partner, whatever. So if we want to get a hold of you, we will put information out um to our listeners. Absolutely. I feel like I'm like, can I I need to talk to you for four more hours? Because I have lots to say to you. Um the last thing I think for takeaways is if you are a couple and you really want to fight for your marriage and you want to stay together and you're so disconnected, what are three things that a couple can do right now if they are not in therapy to just kind of move the needle forward to save their marriage and to stay together? Because I do have to say, like I feel proud of myself that Chris and I did stay together for we were together almost 26 years and you know, married 23 years. So I feel it was tiring and exhausting. But really, once we got to that end part where the girls were older and we traveled and we really like fell back in love, I couldn't, I'd like sit in my office in the front room and like open the blinds, and I'm like, he's home. I'm like, what do you want to do tonight? And before I would be like, slam the blinds shut and be like, I'm going to my bedroom and shutting the door. So, like, we I was so excited. I want people to know that you can get to that point. There are some, of course, that can, but what are three things a couple in turmoil can do to just kind of move the needle forward and like rekindle and find the love that they found when they first got married?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:56

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think number one is be honest with yourself. If if it's not working, stop making excuses, stop blaming and shaming everything else. Own it for yourself. This is your experience, this is how you're feeling about it. So your husband or wife might say to you, uh no, everything's fine, but internally you're going, it's not fine, I'm not happy, I'm not feeling fulfilled, I've lost my spark. Then own that for you because that's your own experience. That's number one. Two is take action. Don't just hope. Hope will get us nowhere, but action shifts the needle. So one action could be what's one thing that my husband has repeatedly asked for, time and time again, that I am resistive to, and be curious about it, and then think about one way that you could shift that. So they may say, you know, a lot of men will admit that they just want more intimacy, and it's like, okay, well, intimacy can be different in different ways. So maybe it's just when you're sitting on the couch, placing your hand on their own, or when you're walking down the street, you know, touching their arm, or when you talk to them, making contact so that there's initiation, there's one action that you have heard and taken action on. And the third thing is is just because your partner may not be open to go and see someone, but you are, go and see them, go and see. You don't need both of you to want you know that that help to start with. But remember that behavior is mirrored. So if they see you changing, I had a couple that did this. He came and saw me, she was closed off to it. And when he he started growing and evolving and thriving, the partner was inspired. They started coming to sessions as well because now they were open to it and felt safe because they respected their partner, they saw the proof, and now they were on board because they felt like they were being left behind because of all the skills that their partner had developed and grown into and improved on, they wanted to level up too. And so I think sometimes it's about the next action is you take action, you lead by example. Stop resenting them for not wanting to join you, lead by example.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:33

Come and get because one last thing, ultimately, what you're doing is working on each individual. Yes, so when they're you know that's the bottom line. We all need to be working on ourselves. Well, every day. I mean, every day. Like I feel like we learn new things every day, and you know, Nikki, absolute pleasure.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:53

Our first international. I hope you'll come back. I would love to talk about next about burnout. Yeah. And because especially for women, whether career in mom world, I mean burnout is huge. Of what's my whole life look like? I would love to have you back. You were amazing. We will put all of your stuff up there. And for everyone in the U.S., it is we're mountain time and we're having 7.25, our time. And she's only at 11 in the morning. We're having wine, and she's having coffee. Yeah. What I'm saying is for people in the US, our time difference is it's your daytime. We have it's our evening time. Yeah, whether you're in California or you're on the East Coast, it's your daytime. So this actually works out really well. So thank you for all your insight. VPB. VPB. Huge takeaway. Huge takeaway. So yeah, that is a game changer for me with actually everything that we are going to start to do. So yeah, it's this is it was an absolute pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:54

Yeah, we adore you. You're so cute. I want to put you in my pocket. I know. Come to the states, come to Idaho. I love you. I would love to stay at. Yes, yes. Well, we we just adore you. We thank you to our listeners. We hope you found this valuable. We will put all of our information um in the podcast um underneath the link and all of that. You guys have a wonderful evening.