Midlife: Sex After 40 | Desire, Intimacy & Grief with Sara Rian

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi you guys, welcome back to WTF, our podcast. We are so happy you are here today and we are the I'm SATA. This is Hello Hillary. I'm so excited. Today we have um a guest that I am so stoked about. Like on we're both two different on two different fronts. Um we have Sarah Ryan here with us today. So I'm gonna do a quick intro, um, tell you a little story about how I found her, and um, she's like a celebrity to me, and she'll probably say, like, oh my gosh, say this, stop it. But um, so Sarah Ryan is with us today. She's an author, a therapist, a mother, a wife. She lives in Metro Detroit. Um, along with running her solo private therapy practice, she writes grief poetry, which is how I found her, and has a and has self-published nine books under the pen named Sarah Ryan. She is licensed as both a clinical social worker and marriage and family therapist, and is also a certified sex therapist, which is what we're talking about today. Uh, Sarah works with women and gender expansive folks who uh reach new levels of safety, intimacy, self-exploration, and pleasure. So this is Sarah Ryan. Thank you so much for being here. I will just say that I found her after uh Chris, I think I found her before Chris passed away because I loved her poetry on grief and she's such a beautiful writer. Um, so I found her, and since Chris has been gone from this beautiful earth for almost two years, I have followed her. Her words have literally like gotten me to sleep at night. I um I am just like so thankful that I found her. So we had a reel from one of our podcast pop. I'm not even sure how she saw it, but I saw Sarah Ryan with her blue little check mark. I was like our freaking reel. And I was like, she's so excited. I go, Hillary. Sarah Ryan liked our reel. She's like, well, I don't know if I follow her because why would she follow grief poetry? You know, it was me and all of our people in our little bubble of grief. And so um I messaged you and I was like, is this really you? Did you really like our reel? And you're like, Yes, Dana, it's really me. I'm I'm looking at your page and I was like, I don't know. I'm just gonna ask her, will you come on our podcast? And really it was for grief. But what Hillary and I have been talking about for quite a while was we wanted to find somebody to talk about women and sex over 40. And she's like, Well, I'm also a sex therapist. And I was like, You are kidding me. Forget the grief for right now. We're gonna talk about sex, which ultimately talking to Sarah, it all intertwines, you know, in some way or another, bringing grief together, which is kind of what we're gonna talk about today. So, Sarah, thank you so much for being here. Um, we are, I am like literally like I just you've gotten me through some of my absolute hardest days and hardest nights with your words and your beautiful poetry, and connecting with other people on your grief page has really like helped me as well. So, thank you so much for that. But we're gonna talk about sex. Yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

You that is a great segue to sort of my first question, which is you're both a licensed sex therapist and someone known for your work around grief. So, how did those two worlds come together for you?

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Yes. So I knew when I was 16 years old that I wanted to be, at that time I called it like a sex psychologist. I didn't really know the language because I was a teenager, but I knew I wanted to be a sex therapist. I clinically wanted to work around sexual health. So I knew that before I was even 18 years old, and I just started I was on that path. Um, even um, you know, I was did that through college. I that's the career I wanted. Um, I became a certified sex therapist amongst my other licenses. I became a therapist, general, specialized in sex therapy. Um, and then right after, so before I was even fully certified, but I just completed my sex therapy training and was in my supervised hours. Um, right after that, my mom died by suicide, so in 2018. And when she died, poetry, I was reading poetry a lot, and poetry was like saving me every time I was alone and I was very traumatized. I wasn't partnered, I didn't have children, I was living by myself, and poetry was basically the thing that saved me when I was by myself. Um, so I was writing it, and I started writing probably two, three days even after she died. And you know, here we are eight years later, and I'm still writing and writing books around um grief and particularly death loss, but grief in general. Um so now, you know, those are how it's like, why is a sex therapist writing about grief? And then even recently, I started realizing in this grief space, this online community that's so wonderful, no one was talking about sex. No one. I was just sitting here, like, I'm in the last year, I've been doing a bunch of grief trainings. I became a certified grief counselor, I'm going through different types of training because I'm a lifelong learner. And and every single one, there's like maybe a second where people talk about like how it could impact sex. It's usually in particular to like spousal or partner loss or pregnancy or child loss and not really anything else. But no one was talking about it in the grief space, and so lately I've been come, it's kind of been a little project of mine to bring sexual health conversations into the grief world and also bring the grief conversation into the sexual health world.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

It's perfect. It's such, I mean, that literally that gave me the chills because I was like, oh my gosh, I feel like it is something that needs to be talked about. So are you going to be sharing? Um, you know, are you going to be sharing on your two separate pages just so we make sure that we're, you know, like you'll be sharing your sex therapy stuff on your other user page. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Yeah. I've I've started kind of merging a little bit, even though this is my pen name, right? Ryan's my middle name. Um because that my page is actually supposed to be a secret, which is kind of a joke now because it's definitely not a secret. Um, but I didn't really want anyone to know. I don't, I didn't think my poetry was good. I didn't want people to see how heavily I grew. I know I still am not a fan of it, but it's fine because that's not what it's about. Oh my gosh. I cringe every time I share it.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

But oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm living proof along with you know so many other things.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

It means the world. Yeah, it means the world because it was just kind of this little like sacred ritual for my mom and just like what to do with all of it. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I am getting much more comfortable with people realizing that like Ryan's my middle name, and I'm sharing more about like I like I was kind of hiding and kind of living double lives almost as though therapists weren't allowed to grieve. And yeah, um, like yeah, it was just an interesting separation I always kept, and now I'm kind of in this space where I'm merging. Um while also maintaining separation though, yeah. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Yeah, and you know, there I think that it's important. I think it's great you're getting some certifications on grief, you know, because there are so many even for my girls, like I they haven't really gone and started talking about their dad with a therapist or you know, my younger daughter, you know, would, but yeah, it's just she they're 25 and 21, so it's a it's a very it's a hard time, but I'm glad you're you're getting that as well. So um, okay, so when women in their 40s and 50s come to you um saying, I just don't care about sex anymore, what do you actually like here underneath that, married or not married? Um, you know, regardless.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

Yes, it's so if they say, I don't care about sex anymore, I always my first thing is like compared to what? Compared to a partner, compared to a past partner, compared to you in your 20s. So I always think when they say I have lower desire or I don't care anymore, my first thing is I wonder what they're comparing it to. Right? That is very important in the sex therapy world or sexual health world, is compared to what? Is it a new partner that's saying you have low desire? Is it um a longtime partner that's saying you don't care anymore like you used to? Right? Is it compared to a younger age when you maybe had it felt like your sexual desire was higher? So that's the first thing, which that's usually what people come in and say is I just don't care about sex, or I just don't care about sex anymore, or I hate sex. I get a lot of I hate sex. And it is our job, part of like the assessment is like compared to what? What's making this person so that where is their anchor point that they're comparing this to? Right. And that's like assessing is this lifelong that you've hated sex? Was this after a negative experience? Was this compared to being, you know, you're 50 now and you're comparing it to when you were 23, newly dating somebody, right? So that's where my mind goes is I wonder what's bringing them in and what they're comparing this to.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

That's I mean, yeah, that's is that a pretty are women when they when you ask that question, is it something that women can answer pretty easily? Or does that take a lot of deep did they kind of know instantaneously, like, oh, I yeah, I just don't enjoy it anymore, it physically hurts, or I'm just not in the relationship sucks or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Yeah, yes, it actually comes up like pretty quickly. So sex therapy isn't a quick thing, but if you're actually engaged, if you actually have, you know, some people use the word dysfunction, but say you have some like issues going on, but there are times where sometimes just in the intake, things resolve or people feel so like normalized and realize they're not broken that it changes like the entire landscape of our therapy. So they come in thinking they're broken, thinking that this is all on them, that there's or there's some like major medical issue, or that I'm gonna diagnose them with some like sexual dysfunction. And then we talk a little bit and we start realizing like, oh gosh, you sound like you have a lot of stress and you're taking on a lot of like emotional labor or mental load in the household, or oh goodness, it sounds like you know, like how of your it sounds like hormones, right? Like there's been some hormonal changes. Have we talked like have we talked about that? Um, does your relationship suck? You can have you can have all, you know, it could look like the best sexual play or behaviors, but if your relationship sucks, that's gonna that's gonna really affect it, right? Yeah, so you know, sex therapy is not some quick fix, but I think I read a stat that it was like something like 80% of like sexual concerns sometimes can be like alleviated just in like an educational session because people realize like they're not broken and we don't get that basic education anywhere else, and they're like, Wow, wait, and I'm like, Yeah, you might not actually need sex therapy after I tell you this. Now, a lot of people do pursue forward and we do like explanation exploration, but they realize they don't have like a dysfunction a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

I actually have a question. Okay, so like traditional sex therapy, because I don't think I've ever had a conversation. What does that mean? What does it mean? Great question.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

So sex therapists do not have sex with their clients, we do not touch anybody. We are not sex, we are not sex surrogates, we are not sex workers in any way. All that means that we are licensed therapists who went and got specialized knowledge and training to work with sexual health. That's all it means. So I had to be a licensed, I was a licensed clinical social worker as well as a licensed marriage and family therapist. I had to do that for years before I could even do the training for sex therapy, and then I had to do another additional two years of supervised sex therapy to become certified. So certified sex therapy isn't actually like a protected title. Um, some people do just call themselves sex therapists, but they may not be certified. Um, so that's a little less like regulated when you're saying that. You don't always know what their training might be or if they've had any. But sex therapists should never ever be touching a client.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Right? It is talk therapy with specialized knowledge and training around sex and sexual health.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

So this is where I as a woman think to myself sex for whatever the reason is, partnered or not partnered, I'm this is just not something I'm interested in anymore. That sort of physiological function is gone from my mental and physical body. I am now reaching out to you to say, I have a problem, I I feel broken, what something's wrong with me. Is that kind of what you're saying? Is people would okay, so it's that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

They come in, they say I'm broken, something's wrong with me. It's not my partner, it's all me. This is all my like right. And that is usually where I say, like, what what's it like? What is this causing in your life? What kind of distress is this causing? And a lot of times they'll say, if I was single, this wouldn't be a problem at all. I wouldn't care, but it's a problem because my partner has higher desire. My partner wants to do this more. Um, my partner and I are grieving sex and we used to really use it to connect. Um, my partner and I are trying to conceive. Like these are all the different kinds of things you hear. But it they're like, but if I was alone, this wouldn't even be an issue because why would it matter? I just wouldn't be having sex.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Yeah, that's so like interesting to me because we we do talk about people we know, and whether it's our friend group or women in general, that a lot of them are like, oh, I'm I like I just have I'm like just the the the the desire is gone and I do not care. And if I never had to have sex another day of my life, I would be totally fine, which obviously isn't normal. Like we're supposed to want to to do that.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

But I mean Well, what's interesting honestly, isn't it? I mean, I've always had a higher drive, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:48

I was gonna say, is it more women than men? I want to ask you that. Like, who who comes to you more? Is it more women than men?

SPEAKER_02 13:54

Um mostly women, yeah. So women, like I said, I I I do have men that will come and say, you know, hey, my desire is lower, this is causing issues, but it's predominantly women who will come in and say, I have lower desire, but I'm partnered. And it is also my job to say, what is normal? Like, why do like there's almost this new beast that we're tackling where women over the age of 40 are being told it's not normal to not want sex and that you are still supposed to be this really sexual, fiery creature. And who who kind of who made that rule? Like, are we allowed to just want sex less and it not mean we're doing something wrong or bad? Like, what makes that so bad to just for it to change, right? Because it changes for men too. Now they might have desire, but sometimes the you know, the mechanical side doesn't work the same way, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Yeah, I mean it's different, right? And honestly, women, the whole like going into your 40s, you're supposed to have like what men is supposed to, in my like maybe not knowledge, sort of taper down. Women, what my understanding is, is we sort of launch off.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

We're supposed to have this surge of sexual desire post- you know, and the only thing is is that when you look at you know, perimenopause, when you look at menopause, it actually would show the opposite, right? So your estrogen drops, and that is responsible for right, like um, you know, staying lubricated. A lot of times when estrogen drops, that cause painful sex. So that's like a lot of those physical symptoms that make women really not want to have sex anymore. But your testosterone also gradually declines, and low testosterone would also mean lower sex desire. Um, so you have all these changes in your sexual hormones, but there there's that piece where I always I talk about like where did that come from? The idea that you had to become this like sexual cougar on the prowl, right? Where did that come from? And they're like, oh, I don't know, like the movies. And I'm like movies, okay. And what does that cause? A lot of shame because when we look at the science, I'm like, it actually makes a lot of sense why your desire goes like you're not ovulating, your body's not trying to reproduce. We don't have to fight that so hard. Now, some women do choose hormone replacement therapy, they do try to get to this space of like higher desire and things, but sometimes sex therapy is actually about looking at that and like, hey, where is this pressure coming from that you need high desire and that you need to be like this pressure to be this like sexual, you know, everyone's sexual, whether you're having sex or not, everyone has sexuality. But where is that coming from that you have to be this like sex hungry woman over 40, right? And they're like, Oh yeah, I don't know, I guess, you know, movies, books, all of that. And I'm like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

All the outside sources. Actually, that brings up a question for me of let's say I come in and we have this conversation, and you say to me, Is it hormones changing? Is it your stress? Tell me about your life, like tell me causation of what it was before. Do you then, let's say, in the work, as we're working together, have women go to their doctors to get a baseline of hormones and thyroid? And is that kind of in conjunction?

SPEAKER_02 17:20

Yes. So with sex therapy, it is also like part of our training and something we take very seriously you cannot rule out medical causes, right? So so much of what we talk about, like I mean, we are we're talking about sex hormones, we're talking about neurotransmitters, we're talking about all these things in the body. Um, so it would actually be quite, I think every therapist should be doing this. Like, hey, have you talked to your doctor? But especially sex therapy, you know, we need to be checking hormones. Is that gonna be the answer every time? No, a lot of times it's a mixture. It's kind of like the chicken or the egg, we don't know, but we do want to look. We do want to look. I also partner often with um pelvic floor specialists. So if people are reporting pain, um, if people are reporting discomfort with sex, I often will say, like, can we are you open to maybe even even if it's just a talking evaluation or an actual physical evaluation with a pelvic floor specialist? I would like to rule out pelvic floor tension, pelvic floor weakness. I'd like to rule out atrophy or dry, you know, uh vaginal dryness. I would like to rule this out. And I don't want to just call this psychosomatic or say this is all psychological, and here there's a medical issue, and they find that you have like extreme pelvic tension or prolapse.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Yes. I've been talking about my pelvic fluorotherapy and getting that going and you know, hysterectomy and all sorts of things. But yeah, I mean, it's definitely like um something that I'm I think is being talked about more, pelvic floor therapy, which is like amazing. And I think it's how do you train that part of your body to like do things that you know are you know wrong, but it's it's it's possible and not just PT, like you know, pelvic.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

We need to do a podcast on that, so we'll have to connect.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

You should. I was gonna say, you would love my pelvic floor therapist that we do workshops and stuff together. I will absolutely give you her.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

She would have never even heard of that.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

And so if you ask men, they say, Well, that's just women. Like, I don't even have a pelvic floor, and I just want to die. Because I'm like, Yes, you do. You just don't get through it through like the vagina, you get through it through the anus, but like you do have a pelvic floor. Like, are that's how that's how much we don't know is that men don't even know they have a pelvic floor, or you're only taught about kegels, and my pelvic floor PP that I adore is very like, I'm so sick of people like saying Kegels, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

That's all I've known. That's all like my grandma used to talk about this.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

And on our time ago, I go, I don't even think we're supposed to do those anymore.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

I think it's like not like kind of like if you have tension, it actually can make things worse. And this is remember where these things all come from. I always say, like, where did that come from? Well, it comes from women being called loose, it comes from the idea that women are blown out or loose after kids or had too many partners. So even that, I'm like, these things are not rooted in like medicine, these things are rooted in like misogyny and patriarchy and all this stuff. So I'm like, people are sitting there trying to tighten their muscles, and really they actually are already have two tenths of muscles, but they think they must be weak or loose, and it's just not how any of that works.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Yeah, it's creating education. We we did talk about that. How you know we we absolutely talked about a funny part about you know me doing cake cagles and her doing them like while she's at the airport, and like you stop going to the bathroom for reception. Yes. I'm like, I don't even know if we're supposed to do that anymore. It's like, why? I mean, yeah, I do it. I'm 56. That's all I've ever heard about is kegels.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

That's all you know, yeah. And and there are just so many other things, and that's why I'm like very pro, like pelvic floor therapists are fantastic, even if you don't like have any issues. I think it's like there could be tense muscles that you don't even know, or like you don't actually know if you have weak muscles versus tense. So there's that side we bring in the medical side. I'm there for the emotional side, I'm there to help kind of guide you where to go. Sometimes it's not your gynecologist, sometimes they don't go, they do not do the psychological part, they don't have that piece. They just say, like, drink more wine, use lube, and then they leave it, or sorry, I can't see anything. I'm like, well, a public floor therapist will actually sit. And so we all work together because we do need gynecologists involved. We do need OBs involved, right? So we kind of work as a team. And so I very much will bring, like, I will make referrals or see if someone can get connected. Um, so that way I don't want to overstep. I am not a medical doctor, right? So I'm like, we need to get you somewhere and we can take this on as a team, and we need to make sure we've explored everything.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Women must feel so supported when they're in that environment. When you come in for one thing and then you end up transitioning into It's a group effort to get you back to a baseline of feeling really good about this area of your life.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Yeah, and there's grief. There's a little grief attached because they'll say, Gosh, when I was 25, I never had to do this. Yeah. I didn't need five people talking about my vulva and my vagina. Right? And I'm like, You're right. And there is that is sexual shame.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

And then a lot of women like have pain, like just kind of live through it and have sex with their partner. I think it's normal because pain has developed, and you just kind of like random bear it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 22:37

And then it's one of the top reported symptoms of women in menopause, is that I think it's like over 60% or something of women report like pain with, and again, pain with intercourse. So they'll say, Oh, well, I'm not experiencing pain with making out and all that, but what do we push in our culture? We push intercourse, we push P and B sex. So they're being told they have to have sex in this particular way, and it hurts, and we wonder why their bodies start wiring against it or want to avoid it. Well, it's painful and they don't feel like they have other choices.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Yeah. That's actually interesting, right? That's a very interesting way of looking at it because, right, when I think of sex, I think of actually the physical intercourse. Yeah. And not all of the other stuff that goes into an intimate relationship.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Absolutely or into sex, right? So part of one of the biggest things we do in sex therapy as well is we kind of rewrite, we unlearn, relearn like what sex means to us. And so it doesn't mean we take penetration off the table or say it's not a yummy, delicious entree, but it's to so we don't view everything else as just little appetizers or foreplay that the other things we can do sexually are also standalone entrees. And that's like mind-blowing for most of the people. And sometimes the men don't like to hear this if you're in a straight relationship. The men don't like to hear that because everything's very like penis-centered in our culture. Um, so sex is even tailored to like what feels good for a penis, but not always what feels good for like a vulva owner or a vagina owner. So they'll say, Hey, your sex therapist is starting to tell you that like intercourse isn't that big of a deal. I don't know if I like her. And I'm like, Yeah, this is about to rock your world, but it's gonna make it a whole lot better when your partner realizes sex isn't three steps and ends when you orgasm, like when the man orgasms, right? Um, so that's what a lot of what I do is we create sex menus together and we do pleasure and body mapping together, and we start saying, like, who told you sex had to look like this in this order? And what would it look like if we didn't differ? And you wouldn't believe how much painless sex goes down because they're not just trying to have penetration every time.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Interesting. Like my mind is blown. Do most women that come for your help, let's say come and let's say they're partnered. Yes. Come in, and then the then you bring in the the spouse, the partner, the significant other, and we so you can conversation.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

So I do individual and I have not taken couples in a little bit, but the so I am trained in couples therapy, trained in individual. Not everyone is trained in couples. That's in your graduate program as like a clinical social worker, you don't get that much interpersonal training. So I made sure to get licensed in that separately because I wanted to be trained in systems work as much as individual, because I knew I was going to be a sex therapist and I wanted to do it all. So with sex therapy, it gets a little bit, we kind of have a little bit more wiggle room where it is a little bit more allowed with ethics in mind to start off with someone individually, as long as you're not just a general therapist, you're saying this is for sex therapy, and then inviting a partner in and letting it merge into conjoint work. But again, that's very different because if I was just seeing something for individual therapy general, I would not invite a couple of a person in to then become couples therapy. That is that is ethically not what I would be doing.

unknown 25:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

So I hope that makes sense. With sex therapy, you can invite partners in because it can get things done a little bit quicker. Because I'm not educating just half the team, I'm educating everyone, right? The whole team showing up to practice. Right. So it does make it a little bit smoother when a partner can be there. And it also makes sure that that means one person is not the problem, one person's not broken. Sex is a team effort, and we get to change it together.

SPEAKER_04 26:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

That's a very important, that's very important message to get across. We do not want the partner who is not in the room to think that they are perfect and not perpetuating any of these problems, and that the other person attending is the broken one.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

Exactly. Well, okay, so I think this actually now we're gonna move into, and we kind of talked about a little bit, we'll touch on it, but maybe there's some other things. Well, yeah, women get sexually detached from their partner. So why?

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Right? And so Yeah, I think I'll just kind of start with I I had this question just because I remember feeling like this when my kids were little, was I'm doing all of the normal woman stuff, like you know, I'm doing house, kids, calendar, which now I mean, I if I could go back, I would do things differently and probably divvy up some things a little bit in the household, which I, you know, I think is so smart that those types of things are are happening now. Um, but I still worked full-time and you know, my husband worked full-time, and I totally remember feeling like, you know, I was managing all this stuff, right? And it was just, you know, hard at the end of the day to to you know want to like go and be intimate because I was exhausted from doing all these things. And um, you know, how when you said uh mostly women come to you, does that come into your office, which I'm sure it does? And then how are you talking about, you know, helping them through some of these, like when you have little ones, you know, like and you're so tired, plus you're doing all these things, you know, what does that look like to kind of like get back on track sexually as a partnership when you're in the thick of it with your little ones?

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Yes, yes, the division of labor, those mentally you're right, the invisible load that's happening. Um, you know, and I try I I love how you said, like, if I could go back, I'd probably make it a little more equal. And I'm very pro, like, hey, it's not 1950 anymore. We don't like the woman should not be doing like you live in this house too, and a lot of women are working now, so like that's not an excuse. But say you are in that kind of like you just happen to be the one that does a little bit more, right? So this division of labors off. You have to think if you are trying to get everything done in the day, your nervous system is probably just like on fire, right? It's trying to seek efficiency, it's stressed. You got cortisol going up, which remember, cortisol with its stress, right, is most of the time it actually decreases sexual desire, just even like physiologically. Some people, when they're stressed, the there's there are they exist when they're stressed, their desire goes up. The body's kind of seeking stress relief. Um, all of that we can talk about spontaneous and responsive desire in a minute. But a lot of times your body's responding to cortisol and stress, and that means desire goes down on top of well, are you having good sex? Does it feel like pleasurable to you? Are you orgasming? Not that everything's about orgasm, that we don't want that to be the goal. But if you aren't enjoying sex and sex now feels like another form of labor or another chore or another way to take care of your partner, right? I can't imagine you're really excited to add that to the list. Right? That doesn't sound like a stress reliever to me. That sounds like a stress, sir.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

So you're not craving that. You're not like, oh, it's like ask it's like saying like the sink is full of dishes again. I'm so excited to do that. No, right? So you have all these things, and then there can be resentment. Like, did you agree on having division of labor look like that? Has it been updated? Have you said, hey, I think I'm starting to like resent this a little bit. It feels like I have too much here, right? So you have all these things at play, right? On top of lack of sleep. Are you eating well? All those things that still affect your sex hormones, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

So if your nervous system is an overdrive, trying to get everything done and stuff, that is not a great, that's not a great state to be in to say, like, okay, now I'm feeling really open and aroused and having like desire for sex. Right. There's so many things at play. Usually when people come to me, I'm like, it's probably not just one thing, it's all of these things. Right? You're like, sex doesn't really feel like it's tailored to me. It feels like something I'm trying to check off for my partner. Right. I'm doing all this stuff. I feel resentful. We don't connect anymore, right? I'm tired, I'm hungry, all these things. And when we think of pleasure, when we think of actually being present during sex, your body needs to be able to reach a state of rest and digest. The opposite we talk about is that fight, flight, freeze, fawn. Yeah, right. A lot of people taking care of their households, taking care of children, you know, trying to work full-time. They're not in rest and digest, and they're actually having a really hard time accessing that at any point in the day. And that's really important to have to really let your body feel safe, feel like it has choice, and actually feel pleasure. So that's all being skipped and not being addressed at all. And all that's happening is like, oh, now we're in bed and someone's grabbing at me.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

And there is nothing more triggering than that.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

On my boob, you know?

SPEAKER_02 31:35

It's the trifecta. They grab at the boobs, they grab at the genitals, they grab at the butt. And those are actually some of the most sensitive areas where I'll tell people like, unless you have massage, kissed, talked, and everything, I don't want you touching. Wait, let's like the Bermuda Triangle. I'm like, I don't want you touching the triangle until you have absolutely warmed up and connected together because it will send your partner if if you know, if they're a woman into like oblivion, probably enraged. Don't do it. Like anger.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

So is that your suggestion then for couples who come and say, right, whether you've got littles or you've got kids in high school and you're just chaotic, life is chaos. Is what are the suggestions and steps that people do to try and reconnect to get back to that kind of rest and relaxation to even enter into that? Yeah, what did you call it? Rest and digest.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

Yeah, so rest and digest. So that's so it's like the opposite of when people talk about like their fight, flight freeze, like their sympathetic nervous system when that's like kicked in too much. The opposite is your parasympathetic, which is that part of that rest and digest space. So that's when you're actually relaxed, your body can actually sit, right? You can actually be present. And now remember too, this is the same nervous system that is in control of sexual pleasure, the same nervous system that's you know, doing hormones, the same nervous systems that's can it's controlling kind of like your pleasure peaking, it's controlling orgasm, all these, it's the same nervous system that, you know, has experienced trauma. It's the same nervous system that was in the car accident, the same nervous system that lost somebody they love, the same nervous system that, you know, witnessed a school shooting. It's the same nervous system that's coming home every night with you and also is part of wanting sex and enjoying sex. We don't get five nervous systems depending on what we do. It's the same one that might be carrying trauma or stress, is now here and it's supposed to be, right? So that is often what we'll do with individuals or couples is we talk about like what can we do to like kind of equalize, if we can, like that that division of labor. How do we get that? Like we talk about communication, we talk about connection. What other ways do we have to increase intimacy? So when I say intimacy, I don't mean sex, that's just the word we've had to say because the algorithm flags it, or people are scared to say sex. Intimacy is it's a kind of closeness of like you're in each other's worlds, not closeness as in we're together all the time, but like emotionally close, friendship, you know each other. Intimacy, right, is kind of the goal. There's other fun goals along with sex, but intimacy is this larger goal. Sex is one tool for intimacy, one tool. Right. What other tools are we using when sex might be a little more offline or not as available to us? So are you having date nights? Are you having weekly check-ins? Right? Are you connecting? Are you fighting well and not fighting ugly when things go on? Right, all of these things are foreplay. All of these things matter. All of these things matter.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

While I'm trying to get ready for work, I'm like, I love you, Chris.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

Yes, like that. Like, please, it is not the touching, it is not right, it's not all this other stuff. It's like all of that, all of that matters. All of that makes a partner feel safe and cared for and able to rest and be present, right? And then on top of, so we do that, that's kind of like the general, and then we do talk directly about sex. We say, can we rewrite this? Can we talk about what actual like kind of sex? And it sounds intrusive. This is why it's usually more sex therapists kind of have to get into the nitty-gritty, but I'll say, like, I need you to walk me through what sex looks like. And it'll be all this stuff, and I'm like, that sounds like it'd be really great for the guy, right? Sounds really bad for the person who might not be a guy in this situation, right? So we do know that like straight couples, when we study like straight couples versus lesbian couples versus gay couples, um straight women are having like the worst sex, like they have like the lowest sexual satisfaction. Straight men don't report the same thing, and that's because straight sex has been absolutely tailored to men's pleasure and not women's.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

Right? So when you look at that, you're like, there's a reason there's an orgasm gap, and there's a reason that there's like a desire gap. The sex we've learned has not been for a woman's body whatsoever. That's why lesbians are having like really good sex and gay men are having good sex, is because they don't have to go by those scripts that straight heterosexual couples have to go by.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

Yeah, I mean, it is true. I mean, we I I have my beautiful, amazing lesbian and gay friends, and I have a lot of friends who are obviously married and straight. And I think it's fair to say that like we just were never taught about anything other than like normal vanilla sex with maybe a little bit of stuff in between, like a tiny little, you know, a little bit, but no flavor, a little bit of flavor in between.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

But like and it was always foreplay, it was always to get to the grand finale, which was intercourse. And intercourse ended when a man was done.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Yes, that's like so, and I think that that is our audience's 40s, 50s, some 60s, whatever, late 30s. We were we grew up in Gen X in the area of like we that's just like one, it's not really was ever really talked about, like we talked to Sarah before we came on, and we said, I said, like, who's the person that you think of when you think of sex? And like, even then, I was like, Oh, I can't believe she said that was Dr. Ruth, and we talked about that before we came on, which was like the epitome of like your ears were burning because the things she was saying were like what things like that we had never been taught, or or I mean, and I guess I'm like thinking about my own kids, like probably have some conversations, but you know what I'm gonna have to say is I had the sexual education very similar, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:42

You went to seventh grade, you watched the little movie, yes, nothing, it was so silly, and then you sort of learned by all giggling in the class. What I will say is I mean, having three daughters, our conversations there are times where I'm like, tap me out, yeah. I don't want to go and I mean they're not inappropriate. I don't need to know this dog.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

I think you are right because I have to say we're dating. Our kids probably know more, honestly, than we know or that we've ever experienced because of movies and social media. So you're right. I probably don't know.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

But they're also more comfortable. Yeah, they're more comfortable with their bodies. I was not comfortable with my body. Yeah, same. Right. My friends, I feel, are much more comfortable with their bodies, with saying how they feel about things in general, not just sexually, but in life. Yeah. So they are better at putting you in on the world of I'm not doing well right now. I am not, you know, I'm having these challenges. So hopefully, younger women, this pans out to be you're right, yeah, I think better in touch sexually and with yourself just because your your own feelings about yourself are hopefully a little bit more elevated. And that's why not true with everybody. With our daughters. Yeah, you're right. We only get to that kind of with this, but you're right. We grew up in this generation where it was kind of oh, no one's like no one, like, oh.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Oh, absolutely not. I mean, to this day, I'll say, okay, you know, like I have two daughters, and I'll say, Okay, you know, they'll they they can't quite say it. They're trying to say vulva, but they call it vulva, and I just can't, I'm not gonna drill down because it's so cute. And people will say, like, are they saying vulva? And I'm like, Yes, like my kids will grow up knowing that the vulva is the outer part and the vagina is the inner part because we weren't taught that. Everyone just calls it a vagina. Yeah, yes, and I want my daughters to know what their vulva is versus what their vagina is, and I want them to know their parts, and they're going to use anatomically correct language because I work with women who are 60, 70, they don't know what their clitoris is, they don't know what their labias are, they don't know, they don't, or I've even worked with, you know, women who are trying to conceive and like they did not know where their cervix was, they don't know what a cervix is, and that's not their fault. It's not, oh, you're so silly and foolish. It's it has been avoided your entire life. No one showed you, no one talked about it. People are scared to use the words, right? We are in a very sex negative society, and that doesn't mean sex isn't everywhere, but it's not real, authentic sex. Sex sells, but it is pornographic, it is violent towards women, and it is not tailored towards women's pleasure. So even though sex sells and it's everywhere in the tabloids and the movies and all that, we are a very sex negative culture because it is not equal, it is not often consensual, it's not real.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

All spot on, very, very much a girl spot on. Yeah, like I I just yeah, it's very, I just can't believe, yeah, we didn't learn anything really. So have been married. The 25 to 30 plus years are, I would say we uh you everything you just said, they will be like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Yeah, 100%. Communication, I was thinking from my first marriage, which was a 16-year marriage before it ended. We married young, me uncomfortable, let's say with my body and my let's say I've always been a sexual person, but not comfortable in communicating that through words. We did not talk about there was not, I mean, conversations that were authentic with what feels good, what do you prefer? And I was not probably I wasn't able and confident enough to say that doesn't feel good. Yeah, or I want you to do this, put your hand here, or there's no way. And I was married from what 24 to 40 in 16 years, I don't remember ever. And we had a fine sex life. I wouldn't say like we were whooping it up, yeah. But there was no intimacy or intimate conversation around that part of our life, it was just something we did.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Well, like she said, absolutely goal was just to go to bed, right? And then you get up and you get your teeth broke and you check it off the box, right?

SPEAKER_02 41:58

100%. It was something everyone was like being told to do. Sometimes at marriage, right? A lot of folks I work with, like they waited until marriage, and then they're like, I was told it'd be good because we waited, or religion told me it'd be good because we waited, and and God would make this so good for us, and married, you know, waiting until marriage and good, you know, it'll be so good. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, hold on, because that like you're learning each other, you still need to be talking about it. Like, what kind of sex were you taught to have? Right. Um, women are taught to be passive yet sexual and always ready to go, but also gatekeepers and and pure and good girls. Like, there's no winning, there was no winning, so no one was teaching women how to say, like, yes, I like that, no, I don't. And if they were saying it, it was still very performative. It was porn star. Yeah, they're moaning, they're doing things, they're doing all these positions, and they people have convinced themselves like this is sexual liberation. And I'm like, This is performance, you're just having a lot of sex, but is it good? Is it good for you? And they're like, No, like I look like this sexual, crazy, you know, it's wild and all that. And I'm like, what's it like for you? And they're like, I don't know, like it's fun, it's cool, it's risky, and all that, but they're like, I'm not like relaxed, it's not really like pleasurable, it takes a lot of energy from me. And I'm like, okay, so that that probably means we're still in performance, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Interesting. I never thought of it that way, so that's so interesting, right? Performance versus like you're in it, yes, performance versus presence. Performance versus presence.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Oh, first time I've ever heard. I think I just have like a whoosh.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Okay, so we're talking performance versus presence, and uh you said like a lot of it is porn-based. I I guess if I'm being honest, well, I want to be honest, um, you know, growing up, when we move into talking the next segment about vibrators, toys, and what we misunderstand about sex. I always associated honestly, like vibrators with like kind of dirty, like porn, like kind of like um, just kind of like why would. Why would I ever need that in my bedroom?

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Because you know, it was well, they come in brown boxes, and you know, they they say, Oh, secretly boxed, and you're not gonna write you're like it's gonna be all it's all hidden. It's all the radar, and you're like, you know, I my girl said to me the other day, you don't go to Adam and Eve. I was like, Why would I you can be seen in a store like that, you know? Like, terrible. I was like, what are you talking about? Like, like for them, it's like going to, you know, well, I'm not saying that they hang out in Adam and Eve, but yeah, they're not like soliciting, they're not like loitering, yeah. Like around, but they're super comfortable in their sexuality in themselves to be able to like, oh my god, I've never been in an Adam and Eve. Right.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

Well, think about it all under toys, vibrators, toys, things. Those are acknowledgments that women don't just want penetration, or they're not they don't just want penetration by a penis that's attached to a man. They might want a penetration, but they might want it to be from a dildo and they want it to be glass, they might want penetration, right? But they also want it to be able to vibrate on the outside because they have this wonderful thing called a clitoris that is there for pleasure and pleasure only with 8,000 to 10,000 nerve endings all in one bundle and through arms, right? So you don't just your clitoris is not just this little tiny bean in the front. It's responsible when you have a G-spot orgasm or all that. It's because that is where your clitoris is threaded through and you're actually hitting the larger anatomy of it, but it's hidden.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

So people, toys are acknowledging that there are other parts to women's pleasure that are not just being like pounded by a penis in the vagina.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Right. Right, how do you, for example, if you are in a partnered relationship, yes, how do you have that conversation? Because I will say, and in like a former marriage, that is not something I could not have brought a toy in to that. It would have been viewed as what's wrong with me? Why do you need this? So, how do you have that conversation with your partner to say, maybe we introduce these other items because I'm looking for more of this sort of the sort of the pleasure part.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Yeah, or they feel intimidated.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

Yes, because that's when it can feel like rejection, it can feel like intimidation, it can feel like inadequacy. And what I always say is we can talk about how to introduce it, but your partner is going to feel what they're going to feel, and there's no perfect wording that is your responsibility to keep them from feeling discomfort around it. Okay. If they react poorly in terms of they shame you, they embarrass you, they yell, that's something else entirely. Right. Right? But your partner may feel uncomfortable, and that is tolerable, and that is okay for them to feel. But if it becomes hostile, if it becomes on you, that's an issue with the relationship. Yeah. Because if you express a need or a curiosity and you are attacked for it, that's showing something else, right? But your partner can feel rejected, and we do talk about it, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:18

Is yes, although I do, I just wonder if men, and you're you're the professional, men in this age group of let's say 40, 50, 60, if this is not something that has been introduced to them or they're even aware of that your partner wants to use, yes, I can see someone reacting in a way that's maybe not exactly like, oh, this is a great idea, or tell me more about how you want this, and taking it personally and thinking, I'm not enough. And then reacting in that capacity.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Well, even if you're so you're not gonna be able to get around that, right? That's the thing that I try to say is there's like we can't coach you into asking in such a perfect way that your partner's like, oh my god, yeah, I love that. There, if you want to be authentic in your relationship, there's going to be moments where you show up and you express needs and there's gonna be discomfort, right? They might feel rejected. It's pretty common, or they might feel intimidated, they might feel inadequate. And I hope this actually sparks a conversation around what toys are, right? And these are aids, these are sexual aids, these are sexual supplements, these are a tool that we get to use together. But a lot of times, like again, how much of it is our responsibility to save men from feeling bad about themselves when we feel inadequate all the time. When people come to me for sex therapy, it's because they feel inadequate. Their partners want more sex, right? So I'm like, hey, you can say I'd love to have more sex. And here are the things I would like to introduce. I think these would feel really good. I think these would keep me present. I think this would make sex so good. They're allowed to feel uncomfortable. We don't have to baby men and their feelings, but that doesn't mean you have to bully them. Doesn't mean you have to be mean. You can say, like, hey, yeah, this probably, you know, I don't know if you've ever used these before or anything like that. Like, I love our sex and I think this could enhance it. But that is part of their journey, is what they're going to do with that discomfort. We can't, we've done enough emotional labor as women. We don't need to take on, like, take it to therapy. Talk to someone about it, talk to a friend who also uses toys in the bedroom. Um why is this any like for women? They're like, oh my gosh, my lemon, my rose, my vibrator, and stuff. We're not going and yelling at men for having hands, but guess what they're doing with those hands all the time? They're just not battery operated. Right! Right. You can you walk around with your hand every day, and that's what you use every day. But I have this specialized thing that feels even better than my fingers that has vibrations or sucking things that my fingers can't replicate that are tailored to my pleasure. Why is it any different than you having a hand, which is a sensation you prefer because that's what you want with someone's mouth, that's what you want with someone's vagina, that's what you do when you self-pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Yes, that says huge that's huge.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

And it does, it actually goes the bigger conversation is the communication piece. And then 100%. No way my husband now would be talking to another friend about toys in the bedroom. But we talked about it. We talk about it, but men don't talk about that, they don't talk, they don't go deep, they don't have those deeper relationships as that's right.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

It's rare. Women do it. Women are we spread emotional labor, like we emo we labor for each other. Men don't, and that's what it breaks my heart sometimes because I'm like, women are having these conversations, and they're then they try to solve all the problems, and men never have to do anything uncomfortable. I'm like, let a man go to sex therapy, let them go to a therapist, let them do some of the work here to handle that feeling of rejection. They're allowed to be mad at society for teaching them that toys were um competition, they're allowed to be mad and go through that, they're allowed to feel rejected. Women carry those burdens every day from the moment of like birth. Yeah. Men can survive a percentage of it, I think.

SPEAKER_00 51:10

This is my she this was like an aha moment for me for sure. And I think for women, our you know, friend group, women in their 40s, absolutely. Can you give maybe two examples, which I think you kind of already did? If um if someone wanted to introduce like what are maybe two different, like one one way somebody can introduce it to their husband, like in a conversation, if their husband is maybe more of yeah, just like I said, nobody if you're married for 15 to 30 years in our age bracket, I guarantee this percentage is very small of women like toys with their partners. I think I could totally be well.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

I mean, just based on the people we all know, yeah, yeah, I would say right.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Right, and it kind of depends, right? Like, what's your community look like? You know, like I work with a lot of folks who identify as like in the kink community, and they might be older in the kink community, but again, who's reporting this? Who's gonna talk about it? So even if they were, they're not gonna say it. They're not gonna be like, you're not walking around with a sign that's like I use a vibrator with my husband, right? Or people don't talk about it. So these so it's like even if they did, they're probably not saying it, they might not be saying it to you, right? So I always like to say, like, focus on the I, the I would like this, right? Not you need this or whatever. It's hey, I noticed when we were fooling around the other day, and maybe we were doing some penetration play or something like that. I noticed like I was really loving some like dual stimulation. I was really loving how it felt to be touching my clitoris and how to be, you know, and while you were inside me, whatever it is. And I was wondering, I wonder what it would be like if that was like vibration, right? I wonder what it would be like to hold a toy against me while we played around. Or I think it would be so sexy to see you holding a toy against my body, right? So bring it, let them know that like you are allowed to state what sounds good and pleasurable, right? And they could say things to you that make you feel rejected. That happens all the time, right? I wish you could do this, I wish you could do oral sex longer, I wish you could do this position, but it hurts. Like, men are not shying away from critiquing and asking for things and making people get uncomfortable and feel inadequate ever. Right. So you frame it around like this would I think this would feel really good for me. And I think it could really enhance our sex, and that makes me feel really excited, and all of that. And if a partner cares about your pleasure, they can hold space for both maybe the a conversation around the rejection or feeling of inadequacy, and the fact that their partner is handing them this beautiful gift, and that's vulnerability and a need and a want and a desire, and good partners will care that that's happening very much. Yeah, a good partner will care that you just came forward and said, I want sex to feel good, and this could make it better for me. And if the ego is getting in the way, we're gonna have to have some conversations about that your ego is standing in the way of me having good sex.

unknown 54:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:09

And it's I mean, it is true. I I think about, you know, even just thinking about women in general, if it's painful, right? I feel like there's you don't want to do it, but then it still kind of goes to that position every time, anyway. And you're like, Do you not remember that I told you that like that position hurts? Like, right, or because it's I think at women, and you know, as we get into menopause and things like that, things just feel different, right?

SPEAKER_02 54:32

And they things change, things move, like even where your cervix sits, every I mean the lubrication, everything changes, right? And things you like and things just change even in general without aging. Things you like sexually eight years ago might look so different now. But that, right? It's like how many times have you not said what you would have liked or said what you don't like? And that shouldn't obviously consent-wise, that should not be happening if right, like right again. It kind of makes you wonder about is age really the excuse we have for like why men don't have to care about their partners or why they're not getting enthusiastic consent, which is just consent, enthusiastic yes. Like it's kind of like I don't care that you're 90, you don't get to be racist. I don't care what you're what age you grew up in, change it. It's not okay. It's kind of like that. So I'm not like a man hater, but I'm very you can I don't cater to men's feelings the way society wants us to, because that's what got us into this pickle.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

No, I think you really just brought up so many really great points, much deeper issues than just sex. For even us to think about, like, oh my gosh, my mind is like blown with some of your professional wisdom and tools like that we would have never really thought about.

SPEAKER_01 55:48

No, I mean, just anatomically, I'm like, do I know what that even feels like to have like dual sensations?

SPEAKER_02 55:56

Which isn't that the wildest thing because over 80% of women cannot reach orgasm without clitoral stimulation, over 80. Yeah, right? So 20% or less of women can pen can orgasm from penetration alone. That doesn't mean penetrate penetration from a penis, but penetration of a digital could be a toy. So penetration alone is only getting 20% of women to orgasm, and women don't still aren't taught to put like the two together, to combine them, or just clitoral alone might be the only way you orgasm, right? Because what would that do if we taught that? Men would feel really unwanted if we taught that like the penis actually isn't necessary, and our world doesn't like that very much. But men don't want sex to be decentered around their penis, right? They don't like that lesbians are having really good sex because there's no penis involved, and that makes people really angry, right?

SPEAKER_01 56:52

I honestly would say that I mean, just speaking for my husband, who's a phenomenal human being, yeah, it's not even at the forefront of his thinking. He's not thinking about lesbians having sex. He's a man, he you know, knows how to use his anatomy, he uses it fantastically. But like I can tell you is he's not thinking about this in that capacity. Right. And you know, it's it's just not something on his radar. And I'm sure if I brought up like, oh, we want to introduce toys, I'm sure he'd be totally receptive and open to it, and I will certainly be having that conversation because now I'm really You should.

SPEAKER_02 57:26

And this is why when we say we bring partners in, because I can say this to women and they're like, oh yeah, this makes so much sense. You know, I've been basically there's all this oppression that has been at hand, right, for a long time. And I'm like, yeah, it's probably not you that needs to know this as much as it's your partner. So some partners love when their partners come to go to sex therapy, and some of them are like, What are they teaching you? And I'm like, Yeah, you're not gonna like it because I'm going against the script. And it that script has been very tailored to you for a long time. But the good partners stick it out and they say, I just want my partner to enjoy herself. I want I want this to be tailored to her. I don't want this about me. If my partner's considering our sex a chore or something to check off or just a quick thing to get done, then I don't want that either because that's not good. Yeah. And so good partners are really excited when their partners do this and really excited when their partners start to explore their pleasure, even if it means decentering men, they're really excited for it because they care about their partner's experience. Absolutely. Right.

SPEAKER_01 58:30

And also being included in that. Yeah, yes, yeah. And they know you, that's where intimacy starts so far away from the bedroom or absolutely the car or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

And I'm even thinking about Chris. Like my relationship with with Chris was so solid and good towards the end. I mean, we had, you know, we were at we're empty nesters, we had gone through so much therapy in our marriage, we got, you know, together when we were really young and we had a lot of learning. Um, but I'm thinking about this, like, oh my gosh, I would absolutely know that hands down, Chris would be like, yeah, like let's in the later years because we worked on a relationship and he would want me to be happy, and I want him to be happy. And you know, we how would it be a confidence thing for him or a self-esteem thing for him?

SPEAKER_02 59:30

Yeah, the ego, like older men, like even giving some credit, I'm like, sometimes like the older men show up and I'm like, oh, like the toxic masculinity has come down. Um, sometimes they're just like, like, I'm no more games, no more, I'm supposed to be a sex machine, and like I'm not trying to be a porn server, but in their 20s and 30s, sometimes it looks like it's hooking up and it's casual, and they're like women are objectified. And sometimes it's actually the older men that surprise you, where they're like, I just want closeness and I want connection and I want everyone to enjoy themselves, and they're not like these little, you know, boys basically who are just watching porn learning from porn that that's what sex is supposed to look like. So sometimes like they really surprise you where you think at an age that they like aren't talking about, they might not be talking, but sometimes I mean it's like they're really like they want their partner to enjoy themselves and they're done with the games of what like the toxic masculinity stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

I know. I will I will say that, and I watch Love Love Island, although I did not watch this last session because I heard it was terrible. But when I hear the word body count from a man, you know what that meant. It literally makes me want to throw up.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:37

Oh, so do I hate it so much?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

I hate like this is. I mean, I honestly didn't know what that meant. I only knew about from Love Island. I think I asked you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

I was like, Oh, I yeah, it's like it is it is typical slut shaming, a typical way to shame women. Keep right, I'm like, men are celebrated for their body count, women are shamed and demonized, and it's right, like but even using the word body count, like let's you can go have sex, go have beautiful sex, it's okay to be sexually active, be safe, but learn your body.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

It's okay to have pleasure, but don't diminish it into the words of body.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:17

That to me was just like so objective, and like and even just all of it, like what and not that people can have sex and not be in love, people can have sex and not like please do, but that like we're summing it up, like numbers, it's about the numbers, like it's so and it is, it's all it's all techniques on to how to like continue oppression and all of that, right? There's all these systemic things at play. This is what we see, this is the symptoms of a patriarchal society. This is this is it, this is everything. So, sex therapy is these nitty-gritty little details and stuff, but it's also like, hey, you're not crazy. This isn't just you, this is a larger systems issue. This is where it started. You know, we have Puritan roots here. Here's what happens with religion. I work with a lot of folks who are dealing with religious trauma and how it's affected their sexuality. You know, it's just yeah, all of it. All of it. That's what I mean. Like sex therapy, it's long, it's not long, it doesn't need to be like years and years and years, but I'm like, it can be jam-packed because you're hitting at like individual levels, but also these macro levels. And people are sometimes hearing this stuff for the very first time. It's it's pretty educational.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:24

Yeah, it is centered around pleasure, which I you know love in whatever facet that brings.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:30

I almost like I yeah, I wish that, you know, I I do feel like there's a shift in our girls' age bracket in the 20s, with really like learning and feeling you know, safer and explorative and talking about it. And then I feel like with men, it's still, I mean, I'm just maybe speaking, but I feel like it's very like porn-based, and they expect the girls that they're with to do all these crazy things that they see in, you know, porns. And I think I even remember having that conversation with Maddie, like even when she was in high school, she's like, Oh yeah, mom, the guys like see it all, and they expect like their girlfriends to do the craziest stuff, and that is like insane to me. So it feels like the men are still kind of in this they are still learning from porn from pornography.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:16

So you do have like sex positively, you know, sex positivity movement, and you have, you know, I definitely am like really proud of some folks in the younger generation, but they are still learning from porn. So kids, I'm talking elementary school, boys are still reporting that where they learned about sex was pornography. And if they're what if they're not watching ethically source porn, which most anything you have access to is probably not, they are not seeing anything good. They're seeing violence towards, they're not seeing anything women-centered, even if it looks like it. I don't care how many acts you see happening to a woman, that's still not for women, that's still not what women actually want. That's all for the male gaze still and the male pleasure, right? And that's where they're learning this from. And there's no one teaching them. There's probably not a lot of people sitting them down and saying, let's talk about sex and also like the pleasure side. It's not all about you. It's not all about hard and fast. That actually won't do anything to a female partner if you're straight, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:15

So, this is where women out there who are raising young men, right, whether they're younger or high school, have these conversations. Yes, please have these conversations.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:26

Please, you will save so many women from having to feel like crap.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:31

Well, and what I'm seeing, I'm in um, I'm in this parent tech group online that I was in from a while back, just about like keeping your kids safe online. And so um I've I just you know it'll pop up on my Facebook, and I mean, I would say 90% of the questions revolve around I just found my 10, 11, 12 year old on our phone looking at porn. Oh my gosh, what do I do? Yeah, how do you, you know, start those conversations early, like way early, I think. I guess. I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:03

100%. I mean developmentally appropriate, right? But they're they're finding it. So it is, it's hey, you know, it's normal, it's natural. Right, like of course you're curious, of of course all of that. Does that mean like they should be watching like violent porn? Like, probably not. Can we talk like even talking about that, right? Of like, hey, what you're seeing here and what they showed you, like this isn't this isn't real, right? There's other things, like there's other things here, or just explaining to them that this is not what sex is meant, and it can for some people that don't yuck anyone's yum. If it's consensual and everyone's happy and that's the kind of sex you want to be having, go for it. I love that. But to assume that that is all fun for all women, and especially that's the part is please talk to your, you know, right, especially like educating young girls, educating our girls that like sex is also for pleasure, not just for reproduction. This also means conversations around consent when you're watching. I'm like, none of this is this is all violence against women. Right? This is all, this all plays into the sex, all the high numbers of how many women are being assaulted, how many children are being abused, men too. So you're not just saving, you know, you're not just helping young women from not being assaulted. You're helping young men too. Right. So just explaining, like it's not supposed to look this violent, or like these are paid, not just actors, but these are sexual Olympians. They are training, training to be able to be in these positions and think like this is not what their sex actually looks like.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:33

Yeah, and very important. So important. And um on that group again that I was on, what I also see, which is crazy, is like a lot of young boys being like um exploited to send pictures. This is like, and when I talk to my sister about this, and her boys are teenagers, like they think they're talking to a girl, like in high school, and they're not and they're sending the pictures, and then they're asking for money, and then they end up like you know, either hurting themselves or you know, so there's that's a whole other conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:02

Yeah, safety, consent, predators. And that's the hard, that's the tough thing is we fight so hard just to get people to talk about that, that of course pleasure gets left out. Like pleasure, I had someone say that um I actually just went to a conference and they said, like, pleasure is like not supposed to be the dessert, like the thing you get after, right? It's not like well, once we have safety and justice and all that, then you get to talk about pleasure. It should be baked in to the entire conversation, and it helps women understand their bodies that they have these anatomical pieces that have nothing to do with procreating, nothing to do with reproduction. They're only there for pleasure. And if you ignore it, they're gonna figure it out, but they're probably not gonna feel empowered, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:46

Absolutely. That's such a uh Okay, we might have to circle back on more of that because we definitely want to go into this last section. Yes, there's so much more to talk about, but let's talk about a little bit, especially with Seda recovering not recovering, but in grief and having lost her husband almost two years ago. So grief, sexuality, and kind of rediscoverment in kind of that post-grief, whether it's the spouse, whether you're in grief from a family member, a child, a pregnancy loss, grief in general. Let's talk a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:19

Yeah, and I guess I can just really start with um after Chris passed, I think the biggest thing that I was struggling with was just like not having him in bed with me. And um that I my dog would like come up on my bed and be on Chris's side. And I remember just like closing my eyes and like sliding my hand under the dog just to like feel that like weight of someone there. And then also just like being, I remember I got a massage and I was like crying because I hadn't been touched in so long, just like a handhold with feet touching on the couch, and then it went into like my fiery widow's fire, which I shared too. Like, if the UPS man knocked on my door and said, Here's your package, I I was so craving like intimacy and sex, which widows fire is a real thing, and I I wanted to. Um, I was like, I was like willing and able to and I didn't sleep with the UPS guy just for confirmation from my mother.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:18

No judgment here. Yeah, I was gonna say for whoever's listening, I wouldn't care. But yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:23

Those were so it was more like um intimacy, and then it was like, oh my gosh, what is happening? I I am like have this desire to just like screw my brains off.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:33

Yeah. I mean, that's they so that term like sexual bereavement is the term that it can apply to other things, but that was created for people who have lost spouses. And it was you lost your accessibility, right? Your your access to this person that if you're monogamous, so say this was your only sexual partner, you lost access to a sexual partner and access to all like partnered pleasure, right? Your sexual routines are now completely disrupted, right? And we're also in a culture that we really do kind of save physical touch for like partners only, right? We're not like touchy, we're not a touchy culture. You're not getting a lot of like, you know, touch. Maybe you're cuddling kids, maybe you're cuddling pets, but we're not like touchy-feely people in the US, at least in our culture. So again, your partner's like the reserve person for all of your touch needs, right? And now they're gone. So not just touch, not just touch, but there's sexual bereavement because you're grieving this access that you had to like maybe safe or comfortable sexual routines, right? Now, there's so a lot of times what people will report is like their sexual desire went down, right? Grief is stressful, um, you know, it's it's attachment trauma. It's, you know, depending on who you lost, how you lost, it's like, okay, cortisol levels through the roof. I'm having a stress response, I'm not sleeping. A lot of times we'll see like, you know, desire can come down, even if just temporarily. But there's also the folks that are like, oh my gosh, my sexual desire went up.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:08

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:08

And then they feel so much guilt, they feel so much like disloyalty or betrayal, they feel ashamed, right? Because, like, how dare you? You're grieving. How could you be thinking about sex? How could you be thinking about sex if it was partner loss with another person?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:25

Right. When really the body is so smart that cortisol may decrease sex hormones for people, but the body also knows that touch, especially sexual touch or sexual pleasure, releases really happy hormones, really feel good hormones. You're getting oxytocin, you're getting dopamine, right? So it knows like I could feel better. And oftentimes you'll hear this a lot with like the widow's fire. You hear this a lot with like partner loss, is you get skin hungry. So your body knows, like, when I'm touching someone else, or if I access these like really erotic zones for me, you're gonna be able to release these hormones. So the body's kind of smart, it'll say, like, I'm going to go after this particular thing that can make me feel really good. And that can be used to ease emotional pain, it can be used to distract, it can be used to numb, right? But sex after loss doesn't have to be this thing that's always pathologized, right? And that happens a lot, whether it's decrease in desire, increase in desire, a lot of times we want to pathologize. And in the grief world, that's what's that's what was happening a lot. It was like, oh, you're using sex to numb, it's so harmful. And I'm like, oh, but no one bats an eye when they're drinking wine all the time, right? Like, hold on. And it doesn't always mean it's harmful. If it's consensual, if you're not like totally emotionally avoiding everything about your loss, yeah, why can't sex be a part of this? Why can't sex be a part of the restoration coping that happens in grief?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:56

So I have a question about that because I'm gonna just from the sideline of SATA say that what about like let's pretend that she was doing that and she was like, I need this in my life, I'm gonna seek this out. Judgment from family, from friends. Because I see and let right. I mean, how does a person who is in that state who needs that do that and feel good about it and not take on the guilt and the judgment? Like, how what would you say to somebody to counsel them in that capacity?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:30

Well, again, you're probably not gonna be able to save someone from feeling the things of like systematic problems, right? That's like telling someone who is black to say, like, here's how you don't feel bad when someone's racist, right? Here's how you don't feel bad against a microaggression. Because what you're seeing, like sex shaming, all of that, that's all patriarchy, that's all misogyny, right? So these are huge, large system issues. And you're gonna feel you're gonna feel bad when people are shaming you for something that's not wrong, right? But so one thing I'll say to kind of like buffer is like really surround yourself with sex positive people. Yeah, surround yourself with people who understand that that's not real and right, who understand that that's like injustice and patriarchy and all of that, that's white supremacy. Be around people who are sex positive, who won't judge sex, who are not sexually shaming, right? But again, if you are in the US, let's say whoever's listening, if you're in the US, I'm like, uh, you're in a you're in it. We have terrible sex ed, we are sex negative, we are sexual shaming, especially towards women, right? So that's the best I can say is like talk to people about that, right? Acknowledge what is guilt versus what is shame. Guilt means you actually did something wrong. Shame is saying like you are wrong or you are bad. It's not a real emotion, it's a taught thing. And so sometimes I'll say, like, did you actually do something wrong? And if they're like, I feel guilt, we talk about that. We talk about, you know, does your grief feel like loyalty? Does it feel like having like pleasure with someone else feels like you're betraying? We can talk about that, but the shame that society is trying to place on you is something else, right? Uh that's something else.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:08

That's huge.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:09

That's huge.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:10

And I guess, you know, yeah, that's that will probably be very difficult for me just based on being online, having our podcast. I think a lot, you know, I think it's when you're online, it's it's not as easy to keep it private.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:23

Um absolutely, you are exposed to all the crap, not just the you're not ex it's like the neutralizer, right? You're not just exposed to the love and the support and people being like, you go girl. You're gonna be exposed to the people who feed right into these problems, who are not sex positive, who are not part of this movement, right? Just like people are probably towards you about your grief. Like people don't like, I get a lot of stuff about people being like, Why are you grieving out in the open so much? Why are you still talking about it, right? So there's like grief positivity, there's sex positivity, there's death positivity, right? So you're a part of this movement, and that means like there's gonna be friction, but it can still be worth it because it's authentic, and we know these are actually real and normal and natural and universal.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:09

Yeah. Well, and the more we talk about all of this stuff, especially as women for women, I mean, raising girls, raising women who are raising sons, this is all part of life. So we are equalizing the conversation, we are normalizing the conversation, and I think it ultimately, if one person can come away from this and feel really good about what we what we hear, what we learn today. I mean, I've learned a ton. Oh my gosh. We've gone to places I didn't even think about it. I thought, ooh, sex baby, like let's talk. This was a conversation that was so much deeper on so many levels. So thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:48

I feel like we have to do Sarah Ryan part two.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:51

Yeah, we're gonna have to. We're gonna have to have you back.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:53

I just have to tell you so many things. I didn't know um, as a 49-year-old woman, that you could have orgasms in multiple areas of mind. Yes, like mind blown. So I would love to like talk about that. I need to go and I don't even know. Like, there's many areas and ways, and um, you know, whether it's in the front, it's in the back, it's inside, it's outside. That blows my mind as a 49.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:21

This is where well it can also be so intimidating because most people I work with, they're like, I don't orgasm even like internally at all. And I'm like, hey, it's good to know all of that, right? But it's okay if your body doesn't do that. Right. But there is, it's like it's just stuff like that, right? It's very like, you know, I kind of call that like that's like the pop psychology, or like that's like the fun like Cosmo magazine about here's all the ways you can orgasm. Then when I actually sit with women, they're like, we aren't even using a like we can't even use a vibrator or or even do coital alignment sex. How am I even going to even begin to think about having alignment? It's absolutely fit. So women who are looking to have like dual stimulation where you're like, it doesn't need to be just to orgasm because we try to remove all goals from sex, but if you're looking for pleasure during intercourse, instead of it being like your partner who has the penis like sitting upright and making no contact with your clitoris, we actually talk about coital alignment, which is kind of like like missionary, but you're actually like this, and you're using that, right? You're using the man would be using his pelvis to be pushing and kind of rotating or rubbing along the clitoris. Right. But in other words, people will fight about it because guess what? The man's not often moving fast, he's not thrusting in and out, it does not look like porn. So the oftentimes the male partner will say, Well, I don't really like this. And it's like, Okay, well, that's fine. You don't have to be enjoying an ecstasy every moment, but these are the things that my body needs. Can we take time from my body?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:01

And men take pleasure when women have pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:04

You hope as long as it's you'd be surprised. They like when women have pleasure when it aligns with what they're liking, but when it takes time away from their penis, if it takes time away from the thrusting or the things that lead them to orgasm, if you take too long during oral sex, it starts teetering into I like it, but this is pretty inconvenient. And that's what we try to push past to. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:27

So that might be, I know we're going over, but that might be a good way to like bring on um other things in the bedroom is by starting with that type of like, well, let's try this, because this actually feels, and then it's like, okay, well, then can we, what else can we do? What else can we do?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:42

Yeah, it feels really good when I'm when this is being stimulated for me on top of this other stuff happening. I wonder what it would be like if it wasn't just pressure and rubbing. What would it be like if it was a sucking sensation or a vibration? Things that our fingers or mouth might not be able to do for long periods of time, right? I wonder if it was cold, I wonder if it was hot. We get to bring in all these new, right, these these new sensation focused things. And it's meant to be fun, it's meant to be like an you know exploratory together.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:12

Which is still, it's just yeah, it's new, it's new for our age bracket, I think, to hear things like that. So, okay, in closing, I just want to say if you are a woman out there and whatever you know context you live your life, whatever partnership you're in, and you are feeling disconnected sexually or frustrated with your relationship or you know, not knowing where to start, Sarah, what is what is something you would guide them, like a good place for them to start would be if they can't see you, obviously, where what's a good place for them to start?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:42

Honestly, I would say first things first is you have to like give yourself the permission slip to actually prioritize your sexual health and your pleasure. Um, because that just doesn't happen for a lot of women. So I think like a first step would be like, I'm allowed to seek out whatever that looks like sex therapy. I'm allowed to seek out public floor work, I'm allowed to follow these accounts on Instagram of sex therapists or sex coaches or things like that. I have to give myself permission to take time out of the day to pursue this. And I am allowed, it is part of my human right to feel pleasure, right? Not just not have painful sex, but to feel pleasure whether with myself, partners. So I think that that permission piece is the biggest part because once you give yourself permission, that's when you'll say, Okay, I will go use my insurance, you know, sex therapist, your insurance covers it. It's regular therapy. Right? Um, public floor therapy, like a lot of times, you know, you can be that cover in some places, right? So that permission would be like, okay, boom, I have permission to care about this. I have one life, I have many more years ahead of being a sexual being. People are having sex into their 90s, even if it's not gonna look like porn, it shouldn't in the first place. But they are sexually active for a very long time. So I am going to prioritize this for myself, which means I will take on couples therapy, sex therapy, pelvic floor, follow the accounts. I'm gonna go to a store, I'm gonna order off Amazon and buy a toy. And I it is worth it to take this on, but you're gonna have to dedicate time. Right? It is gonna take time. It's not, you can't just snap your fingers and start prioritizing, right? It's gonna take some, it's a little bit of an investment and it's worth it.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:22

Yeah, yeah. I mean, just I learned so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:28

Remember in the beginning, I said just be ready. Like, there's so much. There's so much you would not even believe how much there is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:37

Definitely have to be back on for a follow-up.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:40

I'm in, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:41

I'm totally in.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:42

Yeah, so toy like toys. Um uh the kink world is something that I've heard of after Chris Pass or spend some time. Just I didn't even know what that was, Sarah. So there's a lot of like you said, this was like 101.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:57

Yeah, so yes, this is 101. This is like sex positivity, 101, tailored obviously to like to women's bodies, especially tailored to like women who are possibly perimenopause, menopausal, right? You're all like obviously you're kind of menopausal for the rest of your life. That's like once you're menopausal, that's till death, right? You don't like become there's no other state, like that's it. You that's a long journey. So this is tailored to that, but this is also helpful for like anyone listening, but especially like this is a it's a special population that does not get a lot of attention, does not like get a lot of conversation. So yeah, it's there's just a lot there. There's there's sexual bereavement, there's sexual grief, even just around being an old, you know, a woman who's over 40, engaging in sex, or a woman who's like, I don't want to have pornographic styled sex anymore, all these things, right? There's grief, but there's so much empowerment and so much presence, and there's just so many things. So oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:49

I mean, I feel like we could seriously take our five hours. But I hate you. I'm like so in love with you. I'm so grateful for you, and you have helped me tremendously through my grief walk and now my new exploratory life ahead. I don't know what's happening.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:06

Yeah, yeah. All the things that I always say, I'm like the if you want to make anyone uncomfortable at dinner, like just invite me because everything I do seems to make like grief and sex makes everyone very uncomfortable, but they're so needed that like I'll take it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:19

Oh my god. You can come to dinner with our group. You would no, no one would be uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:24

Oh, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:25

We we all that's all we that's all we talk about. Yeah, and talk about it is where it's like taboo still.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:31

Yes, yes. I was gonna say, I'm like, I feel like girls' nights are usually pretty good. Yeah, yeah. Oh, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:38

We will put all of your information up, links to your site, obviously your free page as well, your books. Your books, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:45

Oh my gosh, your books, all of it. I mean, there's so much more we could say with Sarah here. She's an amazing, beautiful soul and human being, and I'm so grateful to have met you and to have you on. So thank you guys for listening. Thank you, Sarah, for being here. And um, we're gonna have her back. Yeah, I'm I'm in. I'm in. Okay, we're so grateful for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:07

Okay, bye.